Skills

[Shadow Reaper]

I'm still digesting the recent reveal that CIG is planning to implement 4 physical abilities that can be leveled up by the player. Though the notion seems fun at first glance, it raises two concerns for me.

First is, one of the things that originally attracted me to SC was it does not have skill leveling, and therefore would not be ruled by young adolescents with no adult responsibilities who game inordinate hours each day. That may be out the window.

Second is the inevitable grinding that will occur by any player using those skills (they affect FPS much more than ship combat it seems) and pressure players to perform tasks they otherwise would not, simply to be good at what they want to do. I can recall many years ago playing Skyrim on the PS3, and topping out my stealth skill very early just so I could use it to easily perform other tasks. Won't this lead to that? I hate that, but just as I don't want to fly an unoptimized ship, I don't really want to be hacking long hours with a combat knife just to be competent with one. If that's what happens, doesn't this again make kids who play 18 hours per day the most effective players in the game, and put so many of us back into the grind CIG told us from the start we could avoid? Seems really late in development to make this sort of change. And honestly, if going on an hour jog each day will make your character sprint faster in FPS, won't players just write code to make that happen? Just seems short sighted to me.

 

[Michael]

I share your concern and i hope they keep it moderate (eg. maximum 25% better Stamina or strength or whatever)

I'm fine with keeping it "cosmetic" so unlock just smoother and maybe a little bit faster animations.

Also something they might need to consider is that you can also "delearn" abilitys. So you can't create the rocketsnipermedicengineer.
So its more an organic thing "you're getting slightly better and what you're doing regularly"

 

[vahadar]

If that's what happens, doesn't this again make kids who play 18 hours per day the most effective players in the game, and put so many of us back into the grind CIG told us from the start we could avoid?

To counterbalance the grinding argument for skills there is one HUGE point you are missing here. Those kids do not have the fleet most of us have. And they will have to grind hundreds if not thousands of hours to reach the level we (most TESTies) are at right now.

Imagine a backer with a Carrack, it is 20millions ingame, that much time he had just avoided grinding simply using his debit card for a pledge ship.

Now imagine a "kid" starting from scratch, making those 20millions, it will take him probably two months assuming he is grinding for higher reputation and better ships to be able to maximize his profit Vs time spent. And playing a lot, like in your assumption.

Repeat that with as many ships a backer has.

If I look at my own hangar, I am saving myself years of grinding the game at the current pace to make money. And that is the only reason for me, to save me time to play the game how I want.

So a skill system for attributes is insignificant compared to that. And I bet it will take much less time to grind a skill ingame than to grind a high end ship. We will see.

Even a player "skill" in a game comes from multiple factors where everyone is not equal, already even before starting the game. Because CPU and GPU differences and your game setup (so your FPS), your internet connectivity (ping and latency), your brain training over time if veteran simulation gamer, your reaction time if you are young Vs old, and so on...

If it is a system like GTA3 San Andreas where attributes were mostly for your character appearance and physical feats, I am all up for it.
Or a system like Ultima Online (without the hard cap of Ultima) were skills improve or degrade over time, a bit like what TES made after for its games since Daggerfall (without the degradability part).
And if it is only used on slight advantages, like the blacking out recovery time, but not used to limit you using equipment in game, like you can't use weapon XXX or ship YYY because you don't have skill ZZZ, I don't care.

As long as the in-game skills does not amplify or hamper the player own human skills (motricity, reflex and such) or does not prevent you to play all aspects of the game, I don't mind.

 

[CRISS9000]

we can only hope, but if CIG's track record of feature creep is any indication, it's probably gonna get inflated and overly effective.

SC might just go the way of the RPG-Lite.

 

[Doggen]

There better be a fishing skill~!

 

[Scape]

Flying with one hand.....a cold beer in the other.

'This is the only skill I require!'

 

[Thalstan]

I'm still digesting the recent reveal that CIG is planning to implement 4 physical abilities that can be leveled up by the player. Though the notion seems fun at first glance, it raises two concerns for me.

First is, one of the things that originally attracted me to SC was it does not have skill leveling, and therefore would not be ruled by young adolescents with no adult responsibilities who game inordinate hours each day. That may be out the window.

Second is the inevitable grinding that will occur by any player using those skills (they affect FPS much more than ship combat it seems) and pressure players to perform tasks they otherwise would not, simply to be good at what they want to do. I can recall many years ago playing Skyrim on the PS3, and topping out my stealth skill very early just so I could use it to easily perform other tasks. Won't this lead to that? I hate that, but just as I don't want to fly an unoptimized ship, I don't really want to be hacking long hours with a combat knife just to be competent with one. If that's what happens, doesn't this again make kids who play 18 hours per day the most effective players in the game, and put so many of us back into the grind CIG told us from the start we could avoid? Seems really late in development to make this sort of change. And honestly, if going on an hour jog each day will make your character sprint faster in FPS, won't players just write code to make that happen? Just seems short sighted to me.

soon they will implement experience, levels, and a New Game Experience

 

[Shadow Reaper]

soon they will implement experience, levels, and a New Game Experience

Well yeah, that is a problem when you sold your company and vision as such and then did another. I doubt any gamer would bother, but this is actually grounds for a legal action. Just seems all manner of stupid to me when it is so unnecessary and they're so very far behind schedule.

 

[Thalstan]

Well yeah, that is a problem when you sold your company and vision as such and then did another. I doubt any gamer would bother, but this is actually grounds for a legal action. Just seems all manner of stupid to me when it is so unnecessary and they're so very far behind schedule.

No, it's not grounds for a legal action. Everything is subject to change, including if you choose to implements in-game skill tables, physical traits, even if they went to a level experience or a time based hit mechanism.

It's a change, but ultimately, it's a small change in comparison to some of the stuff they COULD and still might change.

 

[DirectorGunner]

I'm not worried. They'll be designed like a little specialization reward for doing a lot of something. I'm more annoyed at having to manually eat and drink for now.

Edit:
About the legal grounds comment, what legal grounds? Can you be specific as to what legal standing you would use to sue in relation to a complaint?
It's not the first time someone tried to sue:
https://unicourt.com/case/ca-la1-kenneth-matthew-lord-vs-roberts-space-industries-llc-1522415 (backer wants a refund, dismissed)
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6256484/crytek-gmbh-v-cloud-imperium-games-corp/ (licensing, dismissed)
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59687115/1/aml-ip-llc-v-cloud-imperium-games-corp/ (Accused of Patent Infringement, dismissed)

 

[Han Burgundy]

I'm not worried. They'll be designed like a little specialization reward for doing a lot of something. I'm more annoyed at having to manually eat and drink for now.

I know, right?! I mean, it's the future for God's sake. Put that feeding tube up my dook-chute and let's ROLL, baby!

 

[Sky Captain]

In my opinion, ship leveling was CIG's intended 'progression game' for Star Citizen, but they've sold so many ships for so long now that its become hard to defend that now because it has become entirely 'pay-to-win', something many casual gamers fear. So what does that leave for character progression, from which everyone can say they have a commonbasis for competition? Skills leveling.

I'm ok with skills so long as their leveling is 'use-based' and occurs 'naturally' through skill use during the course of game play. I'd be supportive of skills that improve as they are used, rather than skills that are randomly selectable based on experience point accumulation in general. This approach leads game characters to be what they actually practice, vs. what they might preach.

In other words, to improve efficiency at mining, we'd need to actually do a lot of mining to get better at it. We could not use XP gained by griefing people at port to then spend on mining skill points.

 

[CosmicTrader]

There better be a fishing skill~!

Oh, Yeah!

 

[Shadow Reaper]

About the legal grounds comment, what legal grounds? Can you be specific as to what legal standing you would use to sue in relation to a complaint?

All of the money raised to go into the game is predicated upon the concept that was essentially "sold" to the backers. When they alter the foundational concept, that is depending upon each individual state some type of fraud or malfeasance.

However, to collect you would need to show damages and there are none. You could sue for the money you have put into the game and get it back plus court costs, but really nothing else.

The point is, save the time when CIG announced they were going to build a single player game on top of the MMORPG, they have never waivered about the original concept until now. Even changing their minds about permadeath is not a foundational concept. No avatar skills to be leveled is a foundational concept they are intending to change.

I don't like it. There is no reason to spend any time nor money on that. I think Chris has lost sight of how big a deal it is he is so behind schedule. If by the time he brings out the game all machines and games are two generations past it in graphics, the game will die when it is born. There is competition, after all.

The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing, and I don't think Chris is doing that anymore.

 

[DirectorGunner]

.

I don't agree because (I've learned some of this already via a degree):

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud <-- maybe, I don't have Lord's complaint but I'd assume his attorney would have tried that angle in his small claims complaint.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/malfeasance <- that threshold is too high, maybe you mean https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/nonfeasance ?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/damages <- plaintiff needs to show damages/injury and if can't be remedied otherwise can ask for https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/injunctive_relief Do you have potentially damages? I don't know, an attorney would need to tell you as this is tbh a really weird situation (what Star Citizen is) that wasn't covered in my degree.

"foundational concept" doesn't matter here,
what matters is to discover, depending on where the jurisdiction is for you over this issue:

1. if you are owed any duty(-ies)?
2. if so, was that duty(-ies) breached?
3. Did you suffer injury or damages as a result of the breach?
4. Was there a contract in effect whose terms concern the duty and/or breach?

Sh*t is going to change. If for better or worse will be up to each backer's opinion.
Whatever the situation, each backer would have to find out what options they have if CIG doesn't fulfill a duty owed to said backer, whatever that might be.

"I don't like it." <- yes but not liking something, doesn't mean a duty was breached.

I get really angry with CIG sometimes too. They've done some really stupid stuff with timing and communication and some decisions for how we experience the PU or for what offers we bought into. But, I just don't see a winning path to sue... but who knows... maybe someone will surprise us and win with a valid complaint along the lines of what you don't like about all this. I do think video game developers in general should be regulated more in terms of what they promise to consumers, but who knows when our consumer rights will be strengthened... please pardon my ramblings, my point is: yes you're upset, but I don't think you'd have a clear and strong path to win if you sued. To know with qualified advice and some level of certainty, seek legal counsel specializing in this subject matter.

 

[Dirtbag_Leader]

My sister once put it very succinctly and accurately: "Star Citizen: All the features you didn't know you didn't want!"

 

[CRISS9000]

nuclear truth bombs

and here is the unironic reason why I don't give more money to CIG anymore. they've also done some political BS, and I've added that to my personal list of reasons why not to give money to CIG. but I digress.

with each passing year, we learn yet another thing about chris roberts and his company which, from my perspective, points out that it's yet another corporation in the long list of entities that are only interested in squeezing money out of the general public. and no, it's not something i've only figured out only recently - remember that they *did* hold a "concept sale" for land claims. i don't think i need to tell you how much bullshit that was.

but i think only time will tell how big of a deal it really is to have character skills in star citizen.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

As long as not developing any skills means we turn in to fat old gits who buldge out of the gaps in our armour, I'll consider the simulation true to life and view it as a replacement for reality.