Some stealth tips here, hide behind a bigger ship!
Star Citizen Dev Mark Abent answers on Scanning, Radar and Stealth
- Thread starter Montoya
- Start date
When Mark talks about Radar, he seems to be talking about passive Radar. (receive only)
Most folk think of radar as having a transmitter and a receiver, IE the receiver can only understand signals that result from transmissions that it made,(and reflected back to it).
That was true of the first Radars . But very quickly "receive only" Radar became important. In fact today for your most stealthy aircraft and ships default setting is receive only Radar.
You may think that the term RADAR is not suitable for passive radar. But in fact RADAR is US term and passive RADAR can do what Mark says, given a 3rd party source of emissions.
This is a simplified explanation.
If in deep space with no electromagnetic sources, two ships, stealthy with passive "RADAR" would be a great game session, Any scan/use of thrusters would produce a signal. A single missile patiently launched!
Most folk think of radar as having a transmitter and a receiver, IE the receiver can only understand signals that result from transmissions that it made,(and reflected back to it).
That was true of the first Radars . But very quickly "receive only" Radar became important. In fact today for your most stealthy aircraft and ships default setting is receive only Radar.
You may think that the term RADAR is not suitable for passive radar. But in fact RADAR is US term and passive RADAR can do what Mark says, given a 3rd party source of emissions.
This is a simplified explanation.
If in deep space with no electromagnetic sources, two ships, stealthy with passive "RADAR" would be a great game session, Any scan/use of thrusters would produce a signal. A single missile patiently launched!
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Gotin
Commander
RADAR is radio detection and ranging. Though it can use more than just radio now days including infrared laser and even microwave. It's pretty powerful in what it does and really amazing resolution can be reached.
That said, have you guys ever messed with scanning in the game? I'm sure most of us have right! The thing that gets me is that the terms seem to be getting mixed up even by the devs. We're talking about three different systems. Radar is primarily for combat targeting and ranging, easy enough...it picks up in emissions from other objects putting off whatever it's designed to detect (radio, IR, EM, microwave, etc), and works with the targeting suite for firing solutions.
Scanning, who knows! I'm going to assume this is a synthetic composition involving systems such as optical, magnetic, gravity, etc....maybe it rolls radar in there too. And pings would simply be one or more of these systems doing just that, sending a ping (ONE, echo, only).
But c'mon.....if you've scanned other ships I'm sure you've seen some funny shit. I was flying escort for my wife a while back and on a whim, fired up the scanner and did a full scan of her ship. It told me that her Mole had a bunch of mixed mining onboard. Yet....also told me that .x of her SCU was a meat chunks MRE and a bottle of water both of which were discards, on the floor from when she took a break!
C'mon man, if my scanner is magick enough to tell me crap like that then why are we even using radar?? And why can't my miner tell me rock compositions you know....FROM ORBIT or at least from the time I first detect the rocks??
Maybe that's the intent *shrug*
But as it is now it's kind of silly and I think the devs should devote some lore to the pseudo tech involved in the game. Hell, just make something up to explain it, I'll bite!
That said, have you guys ever messed with scanning in the game? I'm sure most of us have right! The thing that gets me is that the terms seem to be getting mixed up even by the devs. We're talking about three different systems. Radar is primarily for combat targeting and ranging, easy enough...it picks up in emissions from other objects putting off whatever it's designed to detect (radio, IR, EM, microwave, etc), and works with the targeting suite for firing solutions.
Scanning, who knows! I'm going to assume this is a synthetic composition involving systems such as optical, magnetic, gravity, etc....maybe it rolls radar in there too. And pings would simply be one or more of these systems doing just that, sending a ping (ONE, echo, only).
But c'mon.....if you've scanned other ships I'm sure you've seen some funny shit. I was flying escort for my wife a while back and on a whim, fired up the scanner and did a full scan of her ship. It told me that her Mole had a bunch of mixed mining onboard. Yet....also told me that .x of her SCU was a meat chunks MRE and a bottle of water both of which were discards, on the floor from when she took a break!
C'mon man, if my scanner is magick enough to tell me crap like that then why are we even using radar?? And why can't my miner tell me rock compositions you know....FROM ORBIT or at least from the time I first detect the rocks??
Maybe that's the intent *shrug*
But as it is now it's kind of silly and I think the devs should devote some lore to the pseudo tech involved in the game. Hell, just make something up to explain it, I'll bite!
Patrick Spaceman
Grand Admiral
I see it now...an Aurora hiding behind a Connie...Connie pilot in zone chat to a Buccaneer pilot....."Don't you ever talk to me and son ever again.."
I'll like the idea of using other ships or enviroment signature to mask your own....
Also some of the things mentuoned by Mark are already, in some way, in game: if youu go mining is not rare to have a big ping contact at an area like 10km away, then while you move closer and ping again to refine your search you'll receive not a single big ping contact, but sseveral different one scatter in the area of the initial big one.
I see the same machanics apply to ship: you ping and you receive a single contact lets say 20km away, then when you get close and fire another ping you'll discover that the single initial contact is composed by different ship.
For the same reason I can see a couple of fighter mask one into the other signature by flying very close to eachother, so they appear as a single contact instead of a single one.
Also some of the things mentuoned by Mark are already, in some way, in game: if youu go mining is not rare to have a big ping contact at an area like 10km away, then while you move closer and ping again to refine your search you'll receive not a single big ping contact, but sseveral different one scatter in the area of the initial big one.
I see the same machanics apply to ship: you ping and you receive a single contact lets say 20km away, then when you get close and fire another ping you'll discover that the single initial contact is composed by different ship.
For the same reason I can see a couple of fighter mask one into the other signature by flying very close to eachother, so they appear as a single contact instead of a single one.
I forsee big fat ass Orion as bait, yum yum, come herrrreeeee little piwate, got a juicy hauuuul for u...
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Having computer troubles so signed in frim my phone (which is a terrible pain in the butt) but I did note the thread and will jump in to digest what I can ASAP. Indeed, it is one of my chief interests in the game!
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Ok so, my reading of what he is saying is that there’s been nothing changed in plans. There are still just the three types of detection: radar cross section (RCS, what the ping is designed around), EM and IR. Your ability to sense in all three is tied to the size radar you have, so if you’re in an Apollo with Large radar, you have about three times the scan sensitivity as a Medium radar ship and nine times that of a Small size ship. However we still don’t know if that scaling is linear like distance, quadratic like area, or cubic like volume scanned.
The big issues for first contact through sensing remain:
—ping often when in static operations in force to avoid stealthier ships sneaking up on you unawares. Ping is more powerful than passive sensing through EM and IR detection.
—remember that the best way to reduce EM is to switch systems off entirely, but stealth components are generally those that have reduced EM.
—remember that IR decays over time based upon your cooling and current heat generation, while EM is instantly reactive. Turning systems like guns and shields off instantly lowers your EM signature, but these systems do not instantly come online when you switch them back on.
—Also note the stealth switch in all ships reduces IR at the cost of energy consumption. Ideally, stealth ships have more power available than needed for stealth operations, and hugely reduced EM.
—Note that hugely reduced EM is only possible with specific ship frames, components and especially the “EM Box” that surrounds the reactors found only in true stealth ships. You will be able to add Void Armor to lower your RCS to any ship, but you only get the EM box in true stealth ships. This is why the Ghost frame Hornet will always be superior in stealth than all the other Hornets, regardless of fitout.
Current guesswork on my part is that special radars like the Tracker Longlook, the Terrapin and the Carrack have class size beating sensory range by limiting the directivity from omni-directional to unidirectional. So LongLook is size small but acts like size medium because it does not sense in all directions at once. Terrapin is medium but acts like large, and Carrack is large but acts like Cap class. At least that is what I was given to believe in past discussions. Also note that the nature of unidirectional detection creates the necessity of a dedicated sensor station and person to man it. Hence special scan stations on special ships. Directional scan is one of those things CIG has mentioned and said is not yet in game. Think about how powerful that can be. You could literally be part of a stealth force and ping off to beam, and so long as you’re very careful and don’t ping one of your own ships, you could ping without giving away your position. Just don’t ping directly at a foe. Ping on beam at some asteroids and you can create distractions and deceptions. The Long Look radar on the Ghost is going to be powerful indeed!
Just remember nothing is written in stone at least until beta.
The big issues for first contact through sensing remain:
—ping often when in static operations in force to avoid stealthier ships sneaking up on you unawares. Ping is more powerful than passive sensing through EM and IR detection.
—remember that the best way to reduce EM is to switch systems off entirely, but stealth components are generally those that have reduced EM.
—remember that IR decays over time based upon your cooling and current heat generation, while EM is instantly reactive. Turning systems like guns and shields off instantly lowers your EM signature, but these systems do not instantly come online when you switch them back on.
—Also note the stealth switch in all ships reduces IR at the cost of energy consumption. Ideally, stealth ships have more power available than needed for stealth operations, and hugely reduced EM.
—Note that hugely reduced EM is only possible with specific ship frames, components and especially the “EM Box” that surrounds the reactors found only in true stealth ships. You will be able to add Void Armor to lower your RCS to any ship, but you only get the EM box in true stealth ships. This is why the Ghost frame Hornet will always be superior in stealth than all the other Hornets, regardless of fitout.
Current guesswork on my part is that special radars like the Tracker Longlook, the Terrapin and the Carrack have class size beating sensory range by limiting the directivity from omni-directional to unidirectional. So LongLook is size small but acts like size medium because it does not sense in all directions at once. Terrapin is medium but acts like large, and Carrack is large but acts like Cap class. At least that is what I was given to believe in past discussions. Also note that the nature of unidirectional detection creates the necessity of a dedicated sensor station and person to man it. Hence special scan stations on special ships. Directional scan is one of those things CIG has mentioned and said is not yet in game. Think about how powerful that can be. You could literally be part of a stealth force and ping off to beam, and so long as you’re very careful and don’t ping one of your own ships, you could ping without giving away your position. Just don’t ping directly at a foe. Ping on beam at some asteroids and you can create distractions and deceptions. The Long Look radar on the Ghost is going to be powerful indeed!
Just remember nothing is written in stone at least until beta.
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