The Outside: The Philosophical Hyjack Thread

Talonsbane

Space Marshal
Donor
Jul 29, 2017
5,746
19,686
3,025
RSI Handle
Talonsbane
Yeah, I searched the net for events in the specific year 1094, I found jolly bob-all except for a dude in Scotland along with his half-brother (and an army) invaded England, won the battle but then later got beat back to Scotland and killed and his half-brother then joined the bloke who killed his kin, and is named heir. And even then it didn't really make much sense as it was basically bulletpoints rather than a log of what went on.
I went with the 1st thing that came to mind in that general time frame. Being off by ~30 years is still reasonably close with aiming back almost a millennia. lol In the time period of SC, I suspect that they'd remember our general time period closer to the start of the 20th century, where 1 global war helped lead into a global economic depression which was followed by another global war. They would probably compare it to the 2 wars with the Tevarin based on the lore. Mad props to @TheAstroPub for all of his dedicated efforts in the field of SC Lore & many other things.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
I went with the 1st thing that came to mind in that general time frame. Being off by ~30 years is still reasonably close with aiming back almost a millennia. lol In the time period of SC, I suspect that they'd remember our general time period closer to the start of the 20th century, where 1 global war helped lead into a global economic depression which was followed by another global war. They would probably compare it to the 2 wars with the Tevarin based on the lore. Mad props to @TheAstroPub for all of his dedicated efforts in the field of SC Lore & many other things.
I'm not even sure 930 years in the future they'd remember COVID19 to any great effect in so far as it being public knowledge... the World Wars definitely, those were pivotal, but even now Spanish Flu itself is not much more than a footnote when people talk about world events of the 20th century...?
 
  • o7
Reactions: Talonsbane

Bambooza

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 25, 2017
5,760
18,218
2,875
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
I'm not even sure 930 years in the future they'd remember COVID19 to any great effect in so far as it being public knowledge... the World Wars definitely, those were pivotal, but even now Spanish Flu itself is not much more than a footnote when people talk about world events of the 20th century...?
I honestly don't know. Covid19 in the way of a viral outbreak was unique not so much in regards to the infection cost but in regards to the global response and economic fallout.
Compare to the history of the Roman empire and that was near 2000 years ago.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
I honestly don't know. Covid19 in the way of a viral outbreak was unique not so much in regards to the infection cost but in regards to the global response and economic fallout.
Compare to the history of the Roman empire and that was near 2000 years ago.
Literally the only pandemics I know about are Spanish Flu because it's attached to WW1, The Black Death in the 1300's because it wiped out 50% of Europe over 6 years and that population decline even changed the local climate due to decline in being able to perform land management, and COVID 19 because I happened to live through it :-D
 
  • o7
Reactions: Talonsbane

Bambooza

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 25, 2017
5,760
18,218
2,875
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
Yes tracking flu and deaths associated with it is a very new phenomenon. But that mostly comes from the understanding of diseases and what they are. But even still things like the spreading of diseases across North and South America from the European explorers is not well understood or even really talked about.

But when we go back in antiquity they talk about plagues and while some were of things like locus others clearly were virus infections.
Above it all is the concept of recorded history is that which is remembered. It's why we know so much about the Roman empire and so little of the tribes of North America. And to that end why I imagine since the modern age will be easier to recall 1000 years into the future. Just based on how much stuff is recorded.
 
  • Glorious
Reactions: NaffNaffBobFace

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
Yes tracking flu and deaths associated with it is a very new phenomenon. But that mostly comes from the understanding of diseases and what they are. But even still things like the spreading of diseases across North and South America from the European explorers is not well understood or even really talked about.

But when we go back in antiquity they talk about plagues and while some were of things like locus others clearly were virus infections.
Above it all is the concept of recorded history is that which is remembered. It's why we know so much about the Roman empire and so little of the tribes of North America. And to that end why I imagine since the modern age will be easier to recall 1000 years into the future. Just based on how much stuff is recorded.
I hear you on that, but I'm not sure how much of that is going to survive into the future though?

I went back to forums I used to be on in the late 90's and they're just gone. Even using internet archive thingies are incomplete at best. The internet isn't a timeless vault of ever accessible information, Photobucket, Megaupload, these services change or disappear and along with it goes that wealth of data...

Not to mention records which happened but are just inaccessible after they occur such as Ceefax and Teletext etc, things we know about from thousands of years ago were etched in stone, magnetic and electronic recording techniques have a shelf life of a hundred years or two at best before they deteriorate and are lost...

I just can't see 930 years into the future we'll know as much about everyday life of today as we know about the Romans - even modern manufactured non-archival grade paper disintegrates after a couple hundred years... What recorded right now will make it to 2954?
 

Talonsbane

Space Marshal
Donor
Jul 29, 2017
5,746
19,686
3,025
RSI Handle
Talonsbane
I hear you on that, but I'm not sure how much of that is going to survive into the future though?

I went back to forums I used to be on in the late 90's and they're just gone. Even using internet archive thingies are incomplete at best. The internet isn't a timeless vault of ever accessible information, Photobucket, Megaupload, these services change or disappear and along with it goes that wealth of data...

Not to mention records which happened but are just inaccessible after they occur such as Ceefax and Teletext etc, things we know about from thousands of years ago were etched in stone, magnetic and electronic recording techniques have a shelf life of a hundred years or two at best before they deteriorate and are lost...

I just can't see 930 years into the future we'll know as much about everyday life of today as we know about the Romans - even modern manufactured non-archival grade paper disintegrates after a couple hundred years... What recorded right now will make it to 2954?
All the more reason to post increasingly TESTified shit posts my brothers & sisters. LoL

In all seriousness though, I worry less about the things we have documented of current times making it 1k into the future because there are people that dedicate their lives to renewing & restoring things that end up in archives & museums. What worries me more than that are those that clearly strive to change what is recorded & known of history. I've seen it myself in person at The Alamo. The jackass tour guide from San Fransisco, was giving out false information from a bronze plaque, that was dedicated to the Alamo by the Mexican government. The information basically stated that there were almost half as many Texan freedom fighters as Mexican soldiers in the battle. Which isn't physically possible due to its small size & the actual numbers were obtained from the corpses. The "guide" also brushed over all the atrocities that Santa Anna did, while claiming that the Texans were the 1s that killed all of the women & children inside. Note that there was a witness, a child that was hiding, that told everything they saw to the Texans that came to investigate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bambooza

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
All the more reason to post increasingly TESTified shit posts my brothers & sisters. LoL

In all seriousness though, I worry less about the things we have documented of current times making it 1k into the future because there are people that dedicate their lives to renewing & restoring things that end up in archives & museums. What worries me more than that are those that clearly strive to change what is recorded & known of history. I've seen it myself in person at The Alamo. The jackass tour guide from San Fransisco, was giving out false information from a bronze plaque, that was dedicated to the Alamo by the Mexican government. The information basically stated that there were almost half as many Texan freedom fighters as Mexican soldiers in the battle. Which isn't physically possible due to its small size & the actual numbers were obtained from the corpses. The "guide" also brushed over all the atrocities that Santa Anna did, while claiming that the Texans were the 1s that killed all of the women & children inside. Note that there was a witness, a child that was hiding, that told everything they saw to the Texans that came to investigate.
Oooh, an interesting angle indeed, I heard about (but have not yet read) a story called "The Book Of Dave" where a taxi drivers rants end up being the underpinnings of a post apocalyptic societies most holiest of books because they survived the end while most other stuff didn't... Very interesting indeed.
 
Last edited:

Bambooza

Space Marshal
Donor
Sep 25, 2017
5,760
18,218
2,875
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
All the more reason to post increasingly TESTified shit posts my brothers & sisters. LoL

In all seriousness though, I worry less about the things we have documented of current times making it 1k into the future because there are people that dedicate their lives to renewing & restoring things that end up in archives & museums. What worries me more than that are those that clearly strive to change what is recorded & known of history. I've seen it myself in person at The Alamo. The jackass tour guide from San Fransisco, was giving out false information from a bronze plaque, that was dedicated to the Alamo by the Mexican government. The information basically stated that there were almost half as many Texan freedom fighters as Mexican soldiers in the battle. Which isn't physically possible due to its small size & the actual numbers were obtained from the corpses. The "guide" also brushed over all the atrocities that Santa Anna did, while claiming that the Texans were the 1s that killed all of the women & children inside. Note that there was a witness, a child that was hiding, that told everything they saw to the Texans that came to investigate.
I have to imagine as the further one gets from such events the more it gets distorted and the less it matters.

As for @NaffNaffBobFace you do bring up some valid points in the amount of data generated and lost daily. But most of that data is irrelevant as what you and i write as might as we are are still insignificant one of 8 billion people on this planet. But global events are recoded and archived. We just have to look at the moon landings for how well it's being maintained. Even going back further photos have been scanned and transfered into new media. But even with the collapse of civilization and thus the destruction of so many digital archives so much of what we have done to this planet will easily remain far beyond a 1000 years from now.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
...so much of what we have done to this planet will easily remain far beyond a 1000 years from now.
I really hope so, humanity may never achieve immortality biologically but digitally we may unknowingly be part of the first generation who attain digital immortality - "If a technological feat is possible, man will do it. Almost as if it's wired into the core of our being." ghost in the shell - 1995
 

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
Greetings brave and bold Thinquanoughts, welcome to The Outside where we have a topic which has been detailing certain threads for a while now usually around Star Wars and the themes it's stories have included in recent years under the ownership of the Disney Corporation.

There are many aspects to this topic which have derailed a great many threads - fandom, historical context of modern and archive media, the wisdom of crowds and coercion thereof, Corporate governance responsibility and control, cognitive interpretations of evil and where they come from, morality and it's evolution in society not just in one place but around the world, phenomenology, creator gratifications vs audience desires, aspects of 'culture war' intrusion with left leaning "wokeism" and right leaning "fashism" having been mentioned, to name but a selection of the points covered in these most spectacular of diversions.

It's a big topic... so where do we start...?

Well... A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...
 
Last edited:

Talonsbane

Space Marshal
Donor
Jul 29, 2017
5,746
19,686
3,025
RSI Handle
Talonsbane
Greetings brave and bold Thinquanoughts, welcome to The Outside where we have a topic which has been detailing certain threads for a while now usually around Star Wars and the themes it's stories have included in recent years under the ownership of the Disney Corporation.

There are many aspects to this topic which have derailed a great many threads - fandom, historical context of modern and archive media, the wisdom of crowds and coercion thereof, Corporate governance responsibility and control, cognitive interpretations of evil and where they come from, morality and it's evolution in society not just in one place but around the world, phenomenology, creator gratifications vs audience desires, aspects of 'culture war' intrusion with left leaning "wokeism" and right leaning "fashism" having been mentioned, to name but a selection of the points covered in these most spectacular of diversions.
I came across something the other day that made my brain stop functioning for a moment until it could reboot, caused by a lack of logic. I saw a video from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (the city that claims to be the "City of Brotherly Love") where its annual "pride" parade was hijacked & shut down by other "pride-ful" activists that were demanding that the parade which is supposed to be celebrating their group of individuals be used to protest in favor of a group of people that would happily genocide them all for being like they are. It was a full blown cold war of the woke. The only thing keeping them from becoming violent with each other was the police, which both sides were condemning for even being there. When my brain resumed functioning, my initial thought was, the only way this could get any more bizarre would be if it happened in a location somewhere in Arizona, where supposedly there's a 4 way major intersection that happens to have a Starbucks on each corner. Given how many of the participants were dressed, I would not want to be a barista in the middle of that because there's no telling where they'd be holding their "currency". Also, while the fight would be going on, the loud speakers would have to be blasting music from The Village People, to remind them that not everybody that looks like a cop is a person they hate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bambooza

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
12,147
44,553
3,150
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
Kind thanks for joining in the discussion here in The Outside, appreciate your participation, lets have a nice clean discussion in search of enlightenment or failing enlightenment plane old philosophical fulfilment - If I or anyone else in this discussion starts making derogatory comments about each others cognitive function or anything else please don't hesitate to call 'em out on it, the only way we'll progress is by pulling down barriers of ignorance or prejudice and the only way to do that is by holding up a mirror to it.

So...

In the original Star Wars threads there was some degree of dissatisfaction from more than one member with one or two being actively vocal with the direction Disney has taken the story lines of the franchise in several cases, and indeed what the corporation is doing in terms of inclusion, equality and diversity. I do not want to bring up any particular TEST member or their specific examples do wish to carry on the discussion in a less combative, more contemplative place.

...annual "pride" parade was hijacked & shut down by other "pride-ful" activists that were demanding that the parade which is supposed to be celebrating their group of individuals be used to protest in favor of a group of people that would happily genocide them all for being like they are...
That's definitely at the more extreme end of IRL events however is a valid observation of themes raised in the original series of threads in regards to inclusion and some members views on morality, interpersonal relationships and decorum/discretion in just how much needs to be shared with the world.

To start with I'd like to look at the concept of 'woke' and exactly what that means. The definition as found on Mirriam-Webster states it is being "aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)"


Quite how being aware instead of ignorant of racial and social injustice has been turned into a pejorative statement I don't know, but it intrigues me...?

Current examples of things currently being labled 'woke include things such as Black Lives Matter highlighting persecution of skin colour minorities in caucasion countries, LGBQT+ recognition/persecution, Gender Identity Recognition, movements which are anti racial and religious hatred, civil movements protesting mass killings in other parts of the world, going down to things like Green Technologies and Climate Change awareness.

But there are other things which could be counted as 'Woke' under the disctionary definition which are mostly not - The most blatent example Millatary Veterains charities which focus on and help with their struggles post-service really should also be counted as woke as they are aware and attentive of that ongoing societal injustice.

Other recent age examples such as where Christians joined hands and defended muslims at prayer and similarly muslims had protestected Christian churches, could be described as Woke but again, rarely are:


What would we terms things from the past as being "Woke" that were objectively not negative things worthy of a pejorative use of the word? Womens Suffrage and equality movements bringing equal rights and conditions to 50% of the population, the end of Apartheid and Segregation leading to better cercumstances , the end of Slavery and the Atlantic Slave Trade, indeed things today that touch on what some define as "woke" but don't seem to sit under the same umbrealla such as the absolution of the death penalty for Homosexuality in the UK and US. Under the disctionary definition, these things were/are woke...

But would one point to countries in the world today that for example don't allow girls access to education and women access to work and say they are models to how the world should be? I very much doubt anyone who uses the term "Woke" as a put-down would hold those views unless they were also accompanied with an unhealthy dose of gynophobia...?

So is the pejorative "Woke" actually more inclined to be used to describe Extremist elements of those racial and social justice issues where intrusive activism occurs?

Mass organised protest. Civil uprising. Obstructive actions of people standing up and saying something just isn't acceptable anymore, sometimes in small groups sometimes en masse, a quiet majority finding it's voice against a vocal minority... is this what is meant when people use the term "Woke" in a negative manner, and has that been simply misappropriated where elements of those themes have been used to prop up/propel (or simply are present) in plotlines of TV shows made by a company which has since its inception has fielded products based on stories of injustice such as Cinderella, Snow White etc?

So moving back to your example:

...Given how many of the participants were dressed, I would not want to be a barista in the middle of that because there's no telling where they'd be holding their "currency". Also, while the fight would be going on, the loud speakers would have to be blasting music from The Village People, to remind them that not everybody that looks like a cop is a person they hate.
Extremist/Extremism. Not all members of minority group X are going to celebrate/seek recognition with an extravagant display of flesh and will be in the minority just as (for example) there isn't a brothel on every corner of a place noted for heterosexual activity such as Amsterdam but there is definitely a district of the city famed the world over for its red-lights. Does that mean the whole nation of the Netherlands is akin to the more depraved parts of the capital city? No and Hollands national identiy is definately one known for it's more liberal leaning but not one based on any one aspects of it seemingly because while it is more liberal, it's not neccecerily that much more extreme. But those more extreme elements can be coerced, beaten or bent into acting or even serving wants against their or anyone elses greater interests such as you indicate in your example.

I would suggest although there are extremes in every facet of civilization (including Movie Franchise Fandom), we must be wary of grouping and othering sections of society as this in itself can be used as a tool to coerce and corrale a nation of opinions to extreme avenues themselves, potentially leading to a very dark (re: evil?) place indeed.

Your example is a complex and seemingly controdictory one, but one one I cant accurately comment on without the context of the original report - for example one of the controdictions is your claim of potential genocide being purportated against the pride-ful if they had the chance, is Africa has bought claims before the International Court Of Justice of an actual geanocide being purpotrated against that same section of people the price-ful would be protesting for...

And even then reports are bought to us through a lense. The wants, needs and agendas of that lens and what it includes or omits are also accompanied by the complications of the allogory of Platos Cave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave where people have been chained to the wall of a cave from birth. They are positioned so they can only see the wall, where shadows from a fire behind them are cast. Objects are paraded infront of the fire, and the voices of the people carrying the objects bouce off the walls to be heared, with Socrates (the orator of the story) stating for the chained the shadows are the reality as they have never seen anything else, they know not of anything else and indeed that there is anything else outside the cave to know about in the first place. TV screen, News Article, even social media post. Unless you have first hand expiriance, can you really know any of which you see is really what happened or is happening?
 
Last edited:
Forgot your password?