The Real Reason Star Citizen May Fail.

[Phoxxy]

Greetings my fellow testies and citizens. I've come to spark a discussion that has been on my mind for awhile now. But first, lets get some formalities out of the way.

I'm Phoxxy, Been following Star Citizen since mid 2013 Been a part of Test since its creation, all be it a silent member. I lurk mostly but I've wanted to talk about a possible issue with Star Citizens future that it seems not many people are acknowledging and I don't think it's one of those "It's too early in development to tell" subjects.

The Issue: The reason I believe Star Citizen will fail is simple. Progression, or rather a lack there of. Now I know a lot of you are going to argue that there is already progression in the game. But forgive me if I don't consider grinding for currency so that I can get a bigger ship, or fancy looking armor progression. It isn't, it's barely even content in my opinion and frankly most people should agree. Cosmetic flair is not now, nor should it ever be accepted as a replacement for "Progression" UNLESS that particular item gives you something in return that modifies future game play which gets me into my next point, Stats.

My Input: I'm of the opinion that this game would benefit greatly from stats, ship stats, player stats, weapon stats all of which can be improved/modified by modules/armor/attachments and so on. It would give them a platform to have proper progression in the game. I also believe that there should be character based progression, such as learning skills, or some type of pseudo-leveling mechanic. Yes I know you're supposed to come into the PU as some super solider who knows everything there is to know but lets get real here what's the point of playing if all you have to gain is money. If you start with a functioning ship, what's the real incentive?

Bottom line: This is a game before anything. and as a game CIG has to make Star Citizen fun and engaging, and if they want to compete with the longer lasting MMO platform then they absolutely HAVE to have some type of progression in the game beyond physical items that don't improve your characters over all strength. Something beyond simply collecting ships, guns and armor. That is all stuff that should come naturally as you progress, but not be the progression itself.

I'd like this to be a discussion of the subject because I genuinely feel this game is lacking, every patch I've played fails to hold my attention for very long, I basically find my self logging in, looking at the new content, trying some missions and going "Huh, neat" then disappearing until the next patch, I enjoy the game, I enjoy the concept but there's nothing there to keep me engaged as of yet. So leave your thoughts and feelings below and I'll check in every so often.

 

[AccidentProne8]

Well, collecting weapons, money, and armor is most of what other games consider progression...for example Destiny.

In Star Citizen, you will be able to trade up ships, careers, and locations.

I don't view the game as is (Alpha) to even be a game tbh. And I'm happy to wait until 2020. I have barely played the alpha, despite putting hundreds of dollars into the game.

Realistically, creep pushed this game back years, and now that expectations have been reset, I'm not worried unless no new careers have entered the picture at the end of next year.

This is not a game, it is an alpha. And fundraising doesn't appear to be slowing and we can see the financials. More content is dependent on technical blockers which we know are being worked on (i.e. server meshing etc).

I hope you can see my logic, and I'm happy to participate in a discussion.

 

[Phantomoftruth]

i'll suggest that Statistics already exist.
Ships have hull, shield, hardpoints, components. what you with weapons and components directly reflect in the performance of the ship.
FPS is reflected in weapon and armor choices. how much and of what you can carry. how fast you move.
Ground vehicles reflect more of Ships and rest in the space between.

That we have to dig in the game files and metadata for the numbers, just means we don't have the same training wheels.

I'm not sure SQ42 is going to have the stat format you're asking for, let alone the open position of CR that SC was never going to have SKill levels and character levels.

 

[August]

Why not try playing with your fellow TESTies?

 

[Mich Angel]

Apparently you haven't followed SC very well since 2013 then you would know, that what you suggest would benefit the game greatly will be in the game and a ton of more stuff.

As I always say,... ..

CHEERS!

 

[maynard]

A sandbox game can succeed without the 'progression' of a game based on 'levels'. It just has to pit people and groups against one another and let human nature take its course.

Eve Online succeeds by providing competition for finite, scarce resources and a 'sovereignty' system. Human greed and territoriality then make for compelling gameplay in spite of terrible game mechanics built on an obsolete code base.

If Star Citizen fails it will be for lack of conflict drivers. We have an amazing array of warships to fly, but as yet no reasons to fight one another. We have an economy designed to prevent anyone from cornering the market in anything, and no mechanic for capturing and holding territory.

Defeating hordes of NPCs will never make for 'epic' gameplay, nor will accumulating massive wealth by carebearing.

What we need from the Devs are ways to compete with each other and ways to define winners and losers

E-peen is everything

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Minecraft has done just fine.

The only progression in Minecraft is getting systems and abilities that stop you from dying as quickly.

The Minecraft introduced The End to give players a progression point, because one was demanded.

So what can SC do for player progression...?

Well, whats your poison.

The Vanduul is a clear and present threat on the boarders. Throw in with the UEE and you have Squadron 42 writ large...

The star in Tyrol is about to go Supernova. It could be an in-game event where a whole system is wiped out with the rush to escape, and then the science mechanic fans are left to sift through the wreckage looking for stuff to make their name in the 'Verse with...

Smuggling contraband is already in the game in a base version,m but imagine what will happen to you and your load of WiDoW when cargo scanning comes in...

Helping the UEE complete SynthWorld and finding out exactly what the hell that thing actually is because I'm pretty sure it's not going to simply be a lasting testament to mankinds presence in the universe...

Going to Taranis to visit the Broken Moon where you have previously played for hours in Arena Commander...

The Murray Cup for Racers, the underground weapons-live racing league for those who like live a little more risky...

Searching for the lost Generation Colony ship Artemis...

Diving into the corona of a sun in an Endeavor, Checking out the Outsider Cult on Leir if they'll let you get close enough, Visiting Ergo in the Nemo system as nothing more as a tourist and looking at the Space Whale asteroid...

It's all there in the Lore. It just has to get into the game.

 

[Mastersan]

Well, progression can take many forms, and you can argue it in many ways. I believe in Star Citizen the progression of your character is your skill in the game. Did lack of progression lead to a fail of games like Counter Strike or Dota 2? No, because you progress in the game by improving your skill, and this may be the most interesting for players: no pay to win, no mindless grinding and epic loot, no skill trees, but your own skill is what makes you stand out from the crowd. We don't have skill trees or stats IRL, yet there is progression IRL: career, social status, wealth, etc. Skill trees and stats create boundaries, which makes progression limited and pre-defined. It might be that John Connor from The Terminator had formulated the perfect progression path: "The future's not set. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves."


Some examples of IRL-like progression in Star Citizen:

• We already know that in Star Citizen you will be able to modify your ship with various components, for which you need to make money. There are almost no limitations to what you can put on your ship; not like your only weapon options are these two. Do as you see fit for your purpose. Same as if you modify your car IRL.
• We also know that craftsmanship will be based on player skill. E.g. if you are using hand-held tools, or operating a ship like Crucible, - you will need to know the materials and their combinations, as well as be skilled with the tool you are operating to achieve the best result. It's not going to be based on some % chance that you are going to upgrade at a certain level. Just like IRL, - if you don't practice, you let your skill rust, - no fixed % success chance. Stop playing your guitar for a few months and you and your audience will notice the difference.
• Reputation is in the game, but it's not stats, - it's what you do and how well you do tasks. If you perform well enough - you may get some very interesting, challenging, and rewarding job offers. However, there is no progress bar, where you need to pass beyond a certain point to get to a new range of missions.

It is also possible to argue that since IRL there are no skill trees, levels, or stats, - life is boring. Well, to make it a little bit less boring we have Beer. Will lack of progression make life fail, - that's a bit philosophical and may require quite a lot of Beer to help find answers in many lengthy discussions

 

[Thalstan]

There are ways to do both with progression, but I agree that many of the issues brought up by the OP are already planned.

Weapons/shields/armor/thrusters/scanners/coolers/etc can be upgraded to higher quality giving higher output, lower signature, more durability, etc, there will be slots in items where temporary enhancers can be used to improve them. A person who upgrades all their auroras systems to A quality, over clocks them, and uses temporary enhancements will have a ship significantly more powerful than a base Aurora.

That said, while human skill will improve with practice, having a skill set for gunnery that might slightly expand the hit box used with gimbals, while a piloting skill might improve rate of turn/acceleration slightly could prove interesting. A science or repair skill could make whatever golf swing mechanic is used for those jobs easier to hit the sweet spot. A scanning skill might be able to interpret (show) faint returns (distance or stealth) more solidly on a scanning ping, it would also allow you to see minable or salvageable materials further away. A mining skill might reduce the power fluctuations that are present in mining smooth out. You could also limit the number of skills that could be learned to either a set number of skills (3-4) or a set number of skill points, (3-600) that can be distributed any number of ways so long as your cap is not exceeded.

 

[Michael]

I just ask myself will the suggested progression be motivating with "death of a spacemen"? Leveling up your character for one year and then puff some random dude crashes into you and everything is gone? All your soft skill exist but your pilot faints because he has "withstand g-forces on level 1"

What i hated most about eve online was the skill system. That i needed to skill for X amount of time to be good at what i'm doing. I think i would prefer the player skill based system, currently SC is aiming at.

I don't like beeing killed by someone because he is level 200 but acts stupid just because i'm Level 1.

Whats the difference between grinding for currency and grinding for skills?

ship stats -> Ships have stats and can be tweaked to a certain level. So thats already in and is going to be developed further.

player stats -> can be modified with armor, weapons choice probably more in the future

weapon stats -> well currently not really ingame but i'm pretty sure attachements will be a thing.

I actually think if SC will have success then its because its different than any other MMO(RPG).

SC is a sandbox. So you'll have to find the fun or you will quickly leave after a couple of hours, as you currently do. I agree somehow you will need to make progression in the game, but I think that's going to be more "self set goals" than something a developer or designer sets for you. Again I don't understand the difference between grinding for one thing or the other. Grinding keeps you away from having fun.

Tldr: I prefer games with a learning curve which engages me to develop player skills instead of skilling my character.

 

[stockish]

Here is my counter argument point, progression is what YOU as a player make it. For me this is less of a game, and more of an open world experience with the added benefit of multiple systems to engage in. To me that means that there is no real progression besides getting better at whatever particular game loop I am invested in at any particular time.

If I am doing combat, then I want better armor, weapons, accessories, etc. For exploration, maybe I want better sensors, quantum drive, and land vehicles. Cargo may always want one to have a bigger ship to haul more for larger profits, so there are many ways to already progress in this without much digging in to it.

 

[O-Lefty]

It's incredibly disingenuous to say collecting things is not progression. Many people play games just for the collection/completion aspect.

Reputation with different NPC organizations is progression. Missions and other content will be reputation locked.

Exploration is progression. Seeing all the different systems that have been created, witnessing the discovery of new assets, etc. Are progression.

Fighting for org space is progression. Expanding it, defending it, maybe losing it and having to take it back.

Ships have components now, and they will have subcomponents to modify. That's the progression you suggest. Finding the best gun out there and improving it will be a thing. That's progression.

All of this content is already mentioned. I recommend watching/listening to 10 For The Chairman and Around The Verse. You'll pick up on all of this if you're listening for it.


Cheers,
o7

 

[Montoya]

Lets not forget your AI crew. The more experienced and/or highly paid they are, the better they become at the job.

Turrent gunners will have a higher hit rate on targets.

 

[Phoxxy]

Well I'd like to give my feelings after having read all of yours. I see Star Citizen ending up very similar to Sea of Thieves. All you're doing is running around collecting money. It's not very interesting and leaves little in terms of feeling invested in the missions you do. Now if they modify it and give it some kind of loot table when killing NPCs, maybe having leaders of pirate groups be stronger or have a chance to leave behind something unique that would be cool. A powerful gun, or ship module you can only get from that particular mission for example. Then that is a step toward the type of progression I'd like to see.

For those of you comparing to destiny and EVE, Let me remind you that the items in Destiny do in fact have stats that improve your character, they also improve with level and get better the longer you play. I don't see that happening with Star Citizen, everything is on the same level for someone on day one in the PU to someone that's been playing 10 years and that's called casual gaming and it's what made people hate WoW they dumbed down the progression making those who put in the time feel like it was wasted.

EVE online provides plenty more than just pitting groups of people against one another over resources. The ships themselves have stats and unique modules that you can equip to make combat in the different. One module could give someone in the same ship as their enemy an advantage and the process of getting said module requires some form of personal progression. Be it learning a skill, or collecting the resource to craft the module itself. These are the things I'm referring too. If everything can be acquired by currency then there's really no challenge or rewarding feeling when you acquire it. it's just a long grind, there's no uniqueness to getting anything.

I want more than just money for the missions I complete. Give me something unique.

 

[Montoya]

I want more than just money for the missions I complete. Give me something unique.

None of us here can tell you with 100% certainty that this game is going to be amazing.

Star Citizen may end up sucking hard.

Nobody here has a crystal ball to predict the exact future.

BUT! What we do have is a dev team that is highly connected with a very passionate community and are not only willing, but openly take feedback and advice from players. Some of the QA guy were just backers who were hired by CIG and still hang out with us in spectrum and discords. They are a direct feed from the community into CIG, so it is not as if CIG is operating in a bubble and not considering all aspects of what makes current games popular.

 

[Michael]

Well I'd like to give my feelings after having read all of yours. I see Star Citizen ending up very similar to Sea of Thieves. All you're doing is running around collecting money. It's not very interesting and leaves little in terms of feeling invested in the missions you do. Now if they modify it and give it some kind of loot table when killing NPCs, maybe having leaders of pirate groups be stronger or have a chance to leave behind something unique that would be cool. A powerful gun, or ship module you can only get from that particular mission for example. Then that is a step toward the type of progression I'd like to see.

EVE online provides plenty more than just pitting groups of people against one another over resources. The ships themselves have stats and unique modules that you can equip to make combat in the different. One module could give someone in the same ship as their enemy an advantage and the process of getting said module requires some form of personal progression. Be it learning a skill, or collecting the resource to craft the module itself. These are the things I'm referring too. If everything can be acquired by currency then there's really no challenge or rewarding feeling when you acquire it. it's just a long grind, there's no uniqueness to getting anything.

I want more than just money for the missions I complete. Give me something unique.

Currently missions are pretty boring i agree to that. To me its more an issue of level desin and AI.
AI (and NPC) will be stronger depending on their skill. And also CIG stated several times that there will be risk vs. reward. So higher level AI will protect better gear or resources, may have better gear and will be harder to kill. But the AI afaik well never have an OP ship which kills everything with one shot.
So its probably a little bit more realism here than other games. Also i think a unique reward might be conquering a bengal carrier (if they allow us todo so)

Can't say much about destiny so i leave that for others.

I don't see a big difference between what you're describing and what SC does. Everything in Eve can be aquired with ISK. (at least the last time i played the game, which is a couple of years ago).
The only real difference between eve and SC, regarding ships, is that eve has this character skill based system while SC will rely on player skill. Eve system is way more polished ofc.
In SC when i'm not happy with my shield generator i can swap it out.
If i want other guns i can swap it out.
If i want another power plant i will swap it out.
Weight and mass will play a bigger role in the future.
Shields will increase your signature while armor will increase your mass and decrease ship handling.
Other System like the blade system and pretty sure other stuff will be implemented.
I already can decide between ballistics and lazors which will have an effect on how i will fly my ship.
I'm pretty sure other decisions will need to be made to adjust your ship towards what you will want to do.

as an example have you checked out https://hardpoint.io/#/ ?

 

[Wolfy]

The main progression system will be the reputation system ingame that basically acts as a long term way to gain access to certain missions, increase your renown within a community ingame, and unlock specialty items associated with various ingame factions. This can be criminal, legal authorities, various ingame companies, all of that. Plus you can collect SPACE PLANTS!

 

[Mich Angel]

Ah! now is see where you coming from but this game will not hold your hand, it will not show you the way.
In this game it's up to you to ignore or harvest the direction or progress of the choices you make.
The game will not screen pop and pat you on the back when you find loot or do something to let you know you made something great, it's up to you to figure out if it was a good or bad thing.

So if anyone lack the imagination to figure out where they want to take their avatars life in SC, what his or her profession/s will be.
Then I guess it's like fumbling in the dark without a flashlight and I can see how that would get boring fast if you don't have the drive to solve the predicament.
Most would see it as a challenge to solve but without the imagination and drive there would be no progress and you'd be stuck in the dark.

Personally I find exploring and trying stuff to the limit to see where it will take me and that have put me in a lot of fun, dangerous
and interesting situations that from most I know would call progress and it's called learning.
And from what I understand learning is the biggest progress skill you can do in any life, virtual or real life.

To have progress, skill and the freedom to harvest it anyway you want, how is that not a good thing?

"Follow the white rabbit and free your mind!"

CHEERS!

 

[Montoya]

Ah! now is see where you coming from but this game will not hold your hand, it will not show you the way.
In this game it's up to you to ignore or harvest the direction or progress of the choices you make.

We are going to see thousands of disappointed backers when this game is fully out.

I feel we all have a picture in our heads of what the perfect game should be. When Star Citizen does not move in the direction you hoped it would, you will be increasingly skeptical and unhappy with its progress.

We all have to keep in mind that this is not our vision, this is Chris Roberts vision. While we backers do have some input on design choices and direction, the final say will be his.

That is why I tend to avoid theory crafting on many topics like what I think I my main activity will be in this game. I have no idea if I will like transportation better than mining in the final game.

All I am doing is playing whats available and basing my judgement off what I see happening before me in the present.

 

[DontTouchMyHoHos]

We are going to see thousands of disappointed backers when this game is fully out.

I feel we all have a picture in our heads of what the perfect game should be. When Star Citizen does not move in the direction you hoped it would, you will be increasingly skeptical and unhappy with its progress.

We all have to keep in mind that this is not our vision, this is Chris Roberts vision. While we backers do have some input on design choices and direction, the final say will be his.

That is why I tend to avoid theory crafting on many topics like what I think I my main activity will be in this game. I have no idea if I will like transportation better than mining in the final game.

All I am doing is playing whats available and basing my judgement off what I see happening before me in the present.

Cant disappoint if you dont have expectations and only hope for an enjoyable game :P I logged in for the first time in years for a yellow jackets fps thing. I was pretty damned impressed alone visually, the missions lead to some very tiny areas though, which I know have only just begun to be started, but what they did with everything else leads me to believe they are more than capable of fleshing out the missions fully. I think people forget they havent even started on actual content yet.