Watching some SC streams kind of makes me sad

Bambooza

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I got into SC thinking it would be an MMO version of Wing Commander: Privateer. That's what I've been waiting for since 1993.

However, if I can fly around as a trader, mercenary, explorer or pirate with buddies, i'll be satisfied. Time will tell.
Indeed time will tell but as the game progress, it really does seem to be an expanded universe of Privateer which is great.

The only thing that has me worried is the apparent inability of CIG to get the physics grids working right. When boxes keep falling though the deck and we seem to be no closer to having the snub fighters and other ship docking mechanics, it worries me a little that this will be a bridge too far.
I have a feeling most of the time it's not the client's physics grid but a glitch between where the server thinks you are and where the client thinks you are when placing objects and so the placed object get coupled to the wrong physics grid.
 

Phil

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I just feel like some people have unrealistic expectations of what this game will end up being. Not that I don't think it will be a great game, but rather all the "assumptions" and "possibilities" people project into the project that I just don't see happening, and certainly not for years and years and years. Anyone else kinda feel that way?

There are just some things that *might* have been said in the past that I feel some people cling unto without really looking at the reality of development and perhaps more importantly, what is actually technologically possible.

Personally, my expectations have lowered significantly since I first pledged and at this point I'll just be happy with well a polished sandbox with interesting mechanics and systems that are immersive.


I hear talk about massive space battles and think to myself .... what PC do you plan to participate in said battle on? Not sure one can battle effectively at 0 FPS while their CPU and GPU are melting.
I hear talk about long travel times with "upkeep mechanics" and think to myself .... who wants to play a "walking simulator" in space that they have to quit their day job for to play?
I hear all this theory crafting on potential game mechanics and think to myself .... we're not even close to having the ones that were originally promised.

The progress they've made within the last 2 years has me pumped. Even played a decent amount of 3.8 until the bugs became too irritating and game breaking for me, but I feel so many people are still setting themselves up for major disappointment. Some of the proposed ideas I keep hearing might literally be 10+ years out at this point, if possible at all. It makes me oddly sad listening to all of it. Anyone else?

I respectfully disagree....

First of all if we have expectations its usually because its been talked about by Chris Roberts himself or CIG, the large space battles has been speculated because they have said they hoped to get server capacity up, sure 100 at first but I believe they have speculated as high as 1000 in the "future" however long that is, whether it is realistic or not is going to depend on CIG as for our expectations if were told something then were going to expect it that's how it works lol.

Secondly travel times, if anyone ever played World of Warcraft vanilla and participated in a 40 man raid then you already know something like this has happened and will happen again and that's what made them special you didn't do them everyday it was a weekend or scheduled event and I have personally spent 12 + hrs in a 40 man raid and I know others have done twice as much, yes its not a realistic thing to perform daily but something an ORG schedules in advance that people can sign up for I see many things in this game lasting easily this long if not longer and that is what makes the game immersive, the travel time, the planning, the execution a lot of it is "real time" and to your point again ya its not something I could do a lot because of life and work but sure once a month I could set aside some time to do this. So again this is a realistic mechanic its just not something most people would do on a daily basis.

As for the release of the game yes i have my concerns, i have spoken many times on the cost vs the delays vs the promises made, at some point i believe were going to have to many delays which will drive up the cost which will ultimately cost us the promises they made.
 
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DontTouchMyHoHos

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I respectfully disagree....

First of all if we have expectations its usually because its been talked about by Chris Roberts himself or CIG, the large space battles has been speculated because they have said they hoped to get server capacity up, sure 100 at first but I believe they have speculated as high as 1000 in the "future" however long that is, whether it is realistic or not is going to depend on CIG as for our expectations if were told something then were going to expect it that's how it works lol.

Secondly travel times, if anyone ever played World of Warcraft vanilla and participated in a 40 man raid then you already know something like this has happened and will happen again and that's what made them special you didn't do them everyday it was a weekend or scheduled event and I have personally spent 12 + hrs in a 40 man raid and I know others have done twice as much, yes its not a realistic thing to perform daily but something an ORG schedules in advance that people can sign up for I see many things in this game lasting easily this long if not longer and that is what makes the game immersive, the travel time, the planning, the execution a lot of it is "real time" and to your point again ya its not something I could do a lot because of life and work but sure once a month I could set aside some time to do this. So again this is a realistic mechanic its just not something most people would do on a daily basis.

As for the release of the game yes i have my concerns, i have spoken many times on the cost vs the delays vs the promises made, at some point i believe were going to have to many delays which will drive up the cost which will ultimately cost us the promises they made.
There is a disconnect of CIG/players speculating and theory crafting on what they want and would could be potential and what actually will happen. CIG states they are looking to attempt 1000 v 1000, players then blow this out of proportion or take it as it is going to happen. Most people complaining about expectations are people making this expectations on speculation and theory crafting, not what CIG has stated will and can be. If they have made statements and then said they found out they couldn't, people need to not be so butt hurt that they learned something new due to technology limitations that werent discovered until they tried. Simply how shit works in life. They want to promise the world, but sometimes they get a kick of reality and it even sucks for them to learn these things when they just as badly want to make what we all want. This amazingly mind blowing game that defies all expectations. They are human too, but when they do this as well, people seem to burn them at the stake for being just like us. So far from all the things I have read, they are delivering nicely on a lot of things. If something gets pushed back or needs reworking then I dont see an issue simply because its all brand new technology that is being created solely for this game. This isnt some game engine that has been around for over a decade and everyone knows 100% what can and cannot be done with it.

When it comes down to it promises and expectations are set by them simply because they are dreaming just as much as we are. Don't hate someone just because they want to dream with us. They are the ones trying to make the dream a reality while we all sit around waiting by doing nothing. Yes we get them money to do this, but that is the easy part. Giving money makes anything possible. Elon Musk does hardly any of the work for his company in comparison to the people who actually make it happen, but simply getting the money is also the biggest hurdle to making a dream a reality. Sometimes its hiring someone, 6 months later you find out they actually suck and fucked up their project and you had to rehire that position and you lost 6 months of time because of it. You wont know they suck until they have something there to see in the first place. Shit isn't easy, but CIG has done one thing, they have shown they want to create a finished project and they have shown they are striving to make it happen.

I've played countless EA games before I threw in the towel with those guys. None of them have come close to the level of effort and scale that CIG is trying to do and have done.
 

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The difference being they are asking for $$ when making these assumptions and promises, if they say thousands of players per server and then I pledge money then I expect thousand player servers, I don't want to put in 1000$ and then 4 years down the road hear oh my bad we can only manage 100 player server, there is a HUGE problem when companies asking for money to develop a game put out statements like this and then completely miss the mark, if they say thousands of players then I expect thousands when I pledge money into the game. Other wise don't give out numbers just say many or a lot lol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pBUeZ2CTvk&feature=youtu.be&t=28m7s
 
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DontTouchMyHoHos

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The difference being they are asking for $$ when making these assumptions and promises, if they say thousands of players per server and then I pledge money then I expect thousand player servers, I don't want to put in 1000$ and then 4 years down the road hear oh my bad we can only manage 100 player server, there is a HUGE problem when companies asking for money to develop a game put out statements like this and then completely miss the mark, if they say thousands of players then I expect thousands when I pledge money into the game. Other wise don't give out numbers just say many or a lot lol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pBUeZ2CTvk&feature=youtu.be&t=28m7s
Well yea, and you willingly give them money. The game is crowd funded, that is nothing new. I havent heard anything grand that they promised and they havent been working towards or kept yet. They never said they are going to have 1k players on a server, they talked about the possibility. If you believed that then you fell into your own trap thinking they were going to do it when they never said it was a guarantee and it was simply them theory crafting. That specific thing I know they never stated it was going to happen in any capacity other than they want to try.

edit: Keyword is "Hopefully". "Possibility" Those words are not guarantees, but words of something they want to try for. If you pledge on a possibility or a hopefully that is on you. They are still going to try for it, but it is not promised to be. So people who miss those words convince themselves it is actually going to happen and when it doesnt get upset over something they missed or failed to understand. Words mean things. They are completely open about their development. They will tell you what they are trying to do and what they are presently doing. You are getting inside on how every single game is developed. Nothing there is different than any other game development except the fact you get to see it actually happen in videos with CIG. Other companies will never show you this and you wait for tiny amounts of information. Like a character reveal or a map reveal and then bam game is out. They dont give you anything, but all the same, everything CIG is going through happens in all game development. They speculate on what they can and cannot do with newer technology and then they go out and try. You just simply straight up dont see or hear what that video shows with any other company. This is what people wanted to see with a fully consumer funded game. They wanted to be kept in the loop and some people cant manage their expectations properly because of that and get upset.
 
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Bambooza

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The difference being they are asking for $$ when making these assumptions and promises, if they say thousands of players per server and then I pledge money then I expect thousand player servers, I don't want to put in 1000$ and then 4 years down the road hear oh my bad we can only manage 100 player server, there is a HUGE problem when companies asking for money to develop a game put out statements like this and then completely miss the mark, if they say thousands of players then I expect thousands when I pledge money into the game. Other wise don't give out numbers just say many or a lot lol.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pBUeZ2CTvk&feature=youtu.be&t=28m7s
Are we talking thousands of players per server as in thousands of players per server engaged in an epic space battle? Or are we talking thousands of players per server of players who can play together in the same persistent universe?

The former I am not sure is possible, even games like planetside that gets close with engaged players shows that its really a crappy experience. The later they have already shown they are going beyond this with everyone in the same persistent universe.
 
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DontTouchMyHoHos

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Are we talking thousands of players per server as in thousands of players per server engaged in an epic space battle? Or are we talking thousands of players per server of players who can play together in the same persistent universe?

The former I am not sure is possible, even games like planetside that gets close with engaged players shows that its really a crappy experience. The later they have already shown they are going beyond this with everyone in the same persistent universe.
Planetside 2 can handle realatively high numbers though. They also can handle thousands of players on the same map all fighting. So if battle space was spread out far enough in SC it is possible. Just clustered 1k vs 1k would be a mess. PS2 does it well by spreading out the fighting with various attack points/ objectives.
 
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Phil

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Look a 100 people wont cut it, this game wont last long if the max number of players in an area is 100, some ships require one third of that to operate, any plan of large space battles will be tossed out the door if 100 is the max and people will beg for refunds lol. He said thousands plural which means he expects to get close to a thousand and that might be acceptable imo but if he thinks 100 is going to satisfy this crowd when we have an org with over 10k members alone he better wake up lol. And they have in a way promised this type of gameplay its been said on more than one occasion that thousands was the goal, if they had said 50 people max when the game is completed I can bet their funding would scatter like bugs in the light lol other wise they could have saved tons of time and money and made this a single or co-op player RPG the fact is every time they use the word MMO or reference to MMO they are making a commitment that this game will be to that standard you cant say MMO dozens of times and then say oh we didn't actually think we could do it but thanks for the millions invested lol.

I get it, they haven't come out and promised a fixed number and I know why they cant give us that number because their still working on it and at this rate will still be working on it 4 years from now, but how much longer can they drag this out without detailed numbers and timelines, we have seen the road map change and before the road map they stopped making deadlines because they made a ton of commitments they have no idea if they can finish, 50 ships still not done or still in concept, most of the professions still not even fleshed out, we got what? Combat and delivery missions? Now this year will be focused on a single player campaign SQ42 while the core game gets sidelined delaying it even more. My guess is they bit of way more than they can chew and no one really knows the outcome not even CIG.
 
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Harkonan

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No matter the server side tech, you still have to deal with limitations on the client side.

Even if they can encapsulate and mesh space to make it possible for large numbers of players to engange at once, clients still have to render everything and anything going on in render distance. That takes massive CPU power, something no current system is capable of at a large scale. There's a reason "gathering" places in any MMO give players terrible frame rates .... now you add an even more complex set of instructions with higher fidelity and it becomes a nightmare.

I don't ever see large scale space engagements ever being a thing, atleast not for years and years down the road. The hardware to achieve this simply doesn't exists and won't for some time. No amount of clever programming is going to change current hardware limitations.
 
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DontTouchMyHoHos

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No matter the server side tech, you still have to deal with limitations on the client side.

Even if they can encapsulate and mesh space to make it possible for large numbers of players to engange at once, clients still have to render everything and anything going on in render distance. That takes massive CPU power, something no current system is capable of at a large scale. There's a reason "gathering" places in any MMO give players terrible frame rates .... now you add an even more complex set of instructions with higher fidelity and it becomes a nightmare.

I don't ever see large scale space engagements ever being a thing, atleast not for years and years down the road. The hardware to achieve this simply doesn't exists and won't for some time. No amount of clever programming is going to change current hardware limitations.
Unless they slow down server time like EvE, but yes they need to have bigger 100v100, I would be fine with 200v200, but this doesnt necessarily mean 200 ships. It is only 200 people.
 
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Bambooza

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Look a 100 people wont cut it, this game wont last long if the max number of players in an area is 100, some ships require one third of that to operate, any plan of large space battles will be tossed out the door if 100 is the max and people will beg for refunds lol. He said thousands plural which means he expects to get close to a thousand and that might be acceptable imo but if he thinks 100 is going to satisfy this crowd when we have an org with over 10k members alone he better wake up lol. And they have in a way promised this type of gameplay its been said on more than one occasion that thousands was the goal, if they had said 50 people max when the game is completed I can bet their funding would scatter like bugs in the light lol other wise they could have saved tons of time and money and made this a single or co-op player RPG the fact is every time they use the word MMO or reference to MMO they are making a commitment that this game will be to that standard you cant say MMO dozens of times and then say oh we didn't actually think we could do it but thanks for the millions invested lol.

I get it, they haven't come out and promised a fixed number and I know why they cant give us that number because their still working on it and at this rate will still be working on it 4 years from now, but how much longer can they drag this out without detailed numbers and timelines, we have seen the road map change and before the road map they stopped making deadlines because they made a ton of commitments they have no idea if they can finish, 50 ships still not done or still in concept, most of the professions still not even fleshed out, we got what? Combat and delivery missions? Now this year will be focused on a single player campaign SQ42 while the core game gets sidelined delaying it even more. My guess is they bit of way more than they can chew and no one really knows the outcome not even CIG.
Yes and no. If you've played any of the battlefield games then 16 on 16 is a blast and 32 on 32 can be fun but is far more of a chaotic experience where luck factors in more vs the smaller player counts were skill and experience has a far bigger impact on the outcome. Even in games like Planetside 2 the map creation allows the players to spread out more which reduces the number of player on player encounters and allows for a bit more skill to show (still there were lots of map choke points that ended up in a slow bloodbath grind)

What we do know and I honestly have a lot of faith in their ability to achieve it is that the persistent universe will be able to support all of the players and we will not be segregated like lots of MMO's do with world servers IE WoW does with Realms. This means @Black Sunder, you and I can all join up on my Orion for some astroid crunching with @Vavrik meeting up with us in his Hull to haul away the spoils. There are no multiple persistent universes like there currently are we all play in the same big sandbox. Where the limitation comes into play is when the player concentration in a given area gets to be too high for client/server stability then they talked about spawning multiple instances of that location as needed. IE if Test has a grand beer hall meeting in Grim Hex it would be too much for a single server to handle and so everyone would not be in the same instance. But @Blind Owl and you can leave your respected Instances of Grim Hex to join up on @Vavrik beerfarer to do a beer run.

As to how many can be in any one area that is still a question left to be answered years from now.
 

Phil

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I agree with Harkonen 100% this is kind of what I was saying, CIG is giving the suggestion/impression that were going to be able to play with roughly a thousand people he doesn't say when or if its even possible except for "years down the road" I don't mind 200 vs 200, 300, 400 etc... but if CIG cant manage more than 100 people in a single encounter there is going to be quite a uproar in the gaming community imo, this doesn't constitute an MMO but rather a single player or co-op RPG certainly on a larger scale but I wouldn't call it massive, you could then argue Diablo is an MMO because millions play it and you can interact with all of them just not on a large scale simultaniously.

Comparing battlefield and star citizen is like nuts and watermelons imo the two are so different not only in design but scale also, the graphics requirements of just a handful of ships in SC far outweighs any graphical achievement of any first person shooter, id argue one ship alone in SC has 1000x more detail and requirements than that but I understand your point.

Anyone who played Dark Age of Camelot knows what large scale battles are they may have created it there could be as many as 600 players in a given area and the server lag told you if an army was coming and this game was released in 2001 this is almost 15 years old but a good read

"Entertainment(R), developer and publisher of the massively-multiplayer online
role-playing game "Dark Age of Camelot(R)," today announced that the game’s
Realm vs. Realm (RvR) clustering patch resulted in one of the largest battles
ever seen in an MMORPG. Last night, players participated in a massive RvR combat
session where more than 1,500 characters simultaneously fought one another on a
single battlefield. RvR is Mythic’s unique implementation of Player vs. Player (PvP)
combat, and this unprecedented RvR session was made possible through the new
server clustering technology, which was launched on several "Dark Age of
Camelot" servers on February 8."

Granted again the graphics and CPU requirements are vastly different and this is why even today this could not be achieved but back then who would have thought that was even possible.
 
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Bambooza

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I agree with Harkonen 100% this is kind of what I was saying, CIG is giving the suggestion/impression that were going to be able to play with roughly a thousand people he doesn't say when or if its even possible except for "years down the road" I don't mind 200 vs 200, 300, 400 etc... but if CIG cant manage more than 100 people in a single encounter there is going to be quite a uproar in the gaming community imo, this doesn't constitute an MMO but rather a single player or co-op RPG certainly on a larger scale but I wouldn't call it massive, you could then argue Diablo is an MMO because millions play it and you can interact with all of them just not on a large scale simultaniously.

Comparing battlefield and star citizen is like nuts and watermelons imo the two are so different not only in design but scale also, the graphics requirements of just a handful of ships in SC far outweighs any graphical achievement of any first person shooter, id argue one ship alone in SC has 1000x more detail and requirements than that but I understand your point.

Anyone who played Dark Age of Camelot knows what large scale battles are they may have created it there could be as many as 600 players in a given area and the server lag told you if an army was coming and this game was released in 2001 this is almost 15 years old but a good read

"Entertainment(R), developer and publisher of the massively-multiplayer online
role-playing game "Dark Age of Camelot(R)," today announced that the game’s
Realm vs. Realm (RvR) clustering patch resulted in one of the largest battles
ever seen in an MMORPG. Last night, players participated in a massive RvR combat
session where more than 1,500 characters simultaneously fought one another on a
single battlefield. RvR is Mythic’s unique implementation of Player vs. Player (PvP)
combat, and this unprecedented RvR session was made possible through the new
server clustering technology, which was launched on several "Dark Age of
Camelot" servers on February 8."

Granted again the graphics and CPU requirements are vastly different and this is why even today this could not be achieved but back then who would have thought that was even possible.

When it comes to player interaction the games graphic level doesn't have as big of an impact due to the fact that graphic processing is streamlined and offloaded onto the graphics card. Single-player and multiplayer from a graphics standpoint both have the same bottleneck and so the number of players or the number of NPC's can be the same. Take total war, total annihilation or even and the number of NPC's can easily in the thousands.

Games like Diablo, World of Warcraft and Dark Age of Camelot fudge hit detection as they do not need to worry about hit location just if the hit was successful or not and what the damage was. And this is where game engine code gets complicated and why games like Dark Age of Camelot can have 1500 players in a single battle where games like Battlefield struggle with 64 and it has nothing to do with the level of graphics. It has everything to do with the game world state which is made up of the number of state updates per second, the number of active states and the number of entities the server is tracking along with the complexity of the wire mesh.

If you want to get into a deep dive on why you can't compare the number of concurrent players in games like Dark Age of Camelot against games like battlefield we can..
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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I believe CIG has learnt the lesson of saying "would be nice to have's" as "We want" or "We plan". Even at this stage in development we are far too early to be able to safely predict what the technology will be able to sustain to a practical level but the earlier utterances are still being taken as gospel even years later.
 
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Bambooza

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I believe CIG has learnt the lesson of saying "would be nice to have's" as "We want" or "We plan". Even at this stage in development we are far too early to be able to safely predict what the technology will be able to sustain to a practical level but the earlier utterances are still being taken as gospel even years later.
One would hope. I do know as much as the community loved Ben he was detrimental to the community due to his continued information dump that wasn't always inline with the direction development was going in. Even to this day, he has to be one of the most quoted individuals even when the elements in the PU show otherwise.
 

DontTouchMyHoHos

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I agree with Harkonen 100% this is kind of what I was saying, CIG is giving the suggestion/impression that were going to be able to play with roughly a thousand people he doesn't say when or if its even possible except for "years down the road" I don't mind 200 vs 200, 300, 400 etc... but if CIG cant manage more than 100 people in a single encounter there is going to be quite a uproar in the gaming community imo, this doesn't constitute an MMO but rather a single player or co-op RPG certainly on a larger scale but I wouldn't call it massive, you could then argue Diablo is an MMO because millions play it and you can interact with all of them just not on a large scale simultaniously.

Comparing battlefield and star citizen is like nuts and watermelons imo the two are so different not only in design but scale also, the graphics requirements of just a handful of ships in SC far outweighs any graphical achievement of any first person shooter, id argue one ship alone in SC has 1000x more detail and requirements than that but I understand your point.

Anyone who played Dark Age of Camelot knows what large scale battles are they may have created it there could be as many as 600 players in a given area and the server lag told you if an army was coming and this game was released in 2001 this is almost 15 years old but a good read

"Entertainment(R), developer and publisher of the massively-multiplayer online
role-playing game "Dark Age of Camelot(R)," today announced that the game’s
Realm vs. Realm (RvR) clustering patch resulted in one of the largest battles
ever seen in an MMORPG. Last night, players participated in a massive RvR combat
session where more than 1,500 characters simultaneously fought one another on a
single battlefield. RvR is Mythic’s unique implementation of Player vs. Player (PvP)
combat, and this unprecedented RvR session was made possible through the new
server clustering technology, which was launched on several "Dark Age of
Camelot" servers on February 8."

Granted again the graphics and CPU requirements are vastly different and this is why even today this could not be achieved but back then who would have thought that was even possible.
That's perverting what they are saying, they are not giving the impressions. They have blatantly stated hopefully and possibly. This equates to them saying they are simply trying, they are not trying to allude that you should donate to use, we are going to have 1000 player battles. They have made it crystal clear. 1 thousand player battles is a goal they want to reach but might not be attainable. To think any other than that is simply manipulating what they are saying to fit an agenda. They are not trying to allude to anything other then they want to try for those numbers and it isnt a promise or guarantee. So you can't go in saying to yourself, " They told us we would have 1 thousand player battles at some point."
 
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LoicFarris

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I just feel like some people have unrealistic expectations of what this game will end up being. Not that I don't think it will be a great game, but rather all the "assumptions" and "possibilities" people project into the project that I just don't see happening, and certainly not for years and years and years. Anyone else kinda feel that way?

There are just some things that *might* have been said in the past that I feel some people cling unto without really looking at the reality of development and perhaps more importantly, what is actually technologically possible.

Personally, my expectations have lowered significantly since I first pledged and at this point I'll just be happy with well a polished sandbox with interesting mechanics and systems that are immersive.


I hear talk about massive space battles and think to myself .... what PC do you plan to participate in said battle on? Not sure one can battle effectively at 0 FPS while their CPU and GPU are melting.
I hear talk about long travel times with "upkeep mechanics" and think to myself .... who wants to play a "walking simulator" in space that they have to quit their day job for to play?
I hear all this theory crafting on potential game mechanics and think to myself .... we're not even close to having the ones that were originally promised.

The progress they've made within the last 2 years has me pumped. Even played a decent amount of 3.8 until the bugs became too irritating and game breaking for me, but I feel so many people are still setting themselves up for major disappointment. Some of the proposed ideas I keep hearing might literally be 10+ years out at this point, if possible at all. It makes me oddly sad listening to all of it. Anyone else?
You know, honestly I haven't given it much thought. I think that SC was originally conceived with a myriad of thoughts and ideas around how it would play etc. Part of the constant re-works and time delays I think were due to poor project management and massive scope creep. That being said, it feels like they're reigning things in. The focus has been on S42 for the most part, with the PU taking benefits that are developed as a result of that. The PU has been tightened down and development feels focused with new features delayed in favor of bug fixes and fleshing out existing features.

Okay so 3.8 doesn't feel that way. Let's call out the Pink Elephant in the room, 3.8 was rushed... period. But anybody who was around for 3.6 and the iterations of 3.7 saw significantly improved stability with those patches. 3.7 was called by many the most stable patch ever put out. So why is 3.8 a mess, well to be honest I think CIG wanted to leave us with somebody before they went on holiday break... and to be honest, that was smart. While presently many will say "Oh this was rushed they should have taken more time..." many of those same people would have lost their heads if 3.8 stayed in the PTU where it frankly belongs right now and the PU had been given nothing after all the goodies we saw in Citizencon.

With regards to massive space battles... it's funny you mention that. I remember playing a WW1 game in the 90s called Sopwith. The game was a polygon based game which was state of the art for the time and I remember loving the dog-fight mechanics. Back then we would get a bunch of printed material in the box... yes we bought games in boxes and they had "floppy disks." Anyway, in the printed material they talked about how one day it would be amazing to build a game where they could simulate the actual areal battles from the war with all the planes that were actually in the sky. Today we not only have Polygon models of people, vehicles, environments etc. that look almost completely real. But we already have games using those models and technology to manage client / server resource consumption to allow more activity in a single area than any computer could have hoped to 20 + years ago. So back to massive space battles with hundreds of ships if not a thousand. I firmly believe it's going to happen at some point. And to be honest, with the tech they're already producing and the level of detail they're pushing out, I think it'll be here sooner than we expect.

As for the other stuff... maintenance mechanics during long trips etc. I'm with you there. I don't want my ship to feel like a lemon that requires constant care and can't make a road-trip without endless wrenching on the engine. I already hate the fuel mechanics because I find them un-realistic considering the advancements I expect we will make in 900 years. But that's my personal gripe.
 
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LoicFarris

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That's perverting what they are saying, they are not giving the impressions. They have blatantly stated hopefully and possibly. This equates to them saying they are simply trying, they are not trying to allude that you should donate to use, we are going to have 1000 player battles. They have made it crystal clear. 1 thousand player battles is a goal they want to reach but might not be attainable. To think any other than that is simply manipulating what they are saying to fit an agenda. They are not trying to allude to anything other then they want to try for those numbers and it isnt a promise or guarantee. So you can't go in saying to yourself, " They told us we would have 1 thousand player battles at some point."
Also keep in mind that they have stated that areas will be instanced out if needed. The fact is if you have a thousand people converge on PO, it would be a shit show. I get they can't get more than 50 people on a server w/o stability issues right now but I am confident that will change. People forget that they're doing something nobody else has done, and it's going to make things complicated. If they were building this game to be no better or worse than say Elite Dangerous then I'm sure we'd be well above the 50 player cap by now.
 
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