Security Yellow Jackets and the future of comms in battle, brainstorming!

vahadar

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Hello fellow Yellow Jackets πŸ––

Last CFT on saturday we had an awsome debriefing about comms and i'd like to expand on this momentum. Here are some thoughts to discuss and brainstorm to anticipate the way we will communicate efficiently during an operation (OP).

@marcsand2 @Cugino83 @Reload @Tei @seriousseriouspunch @O-Lefty @August @IcaroSP @Montoya @Black Sunder @Printimus @Robilarr @Malarthyn @wmk @BUTUZ @Khristoph @Redwolfe @Ryonin Shonin @placid @Beaches @Zatellia @Jabus @Aramsolari @Han Burgundy @Lorddarthvik @Palmtree219 @DirectorGunner @Blind Owl @Sayora @Talonsbane @Sraika @Deroth @Will C.
Sorry i dont remember all names of people i've been playing with in op

I come from "military" space sim games like Eve online where communications were structured, allowing up to a thousand people in comms to fight together, and operation were made easy thanks to the friendly Eve user interface for fleet command and targets designation (see my thoughts here about fleet commanding in Eve vs SC).
But it is not the case in Star Citizen (YET), we do not have friendly UI to help our fleet commanders, and i do not see how we can apply the model from Eve or any other games here. We probably need to think the communication model from scratch according to our future needs in battle.

I would prefer that people avoid imposing a model here that wasnt built for SC (i've seen that a lot before in other games). What you have experienced before in a game or real-life (like military background) is potientially usefull but here we will need to adapt to the game when released, its UI and its combat mechanics.
While on the very small scale level we can still have friendly comms, this should not be the case as the fight scales up and we need to enforce some kind of dicipline.

I will try to raise questions with some basic operations (OP) exemples and needs, and i hope we can think about more questions or solutions that would help us later when our fights will scale up.

Every input is welcomed, even if you are not a fighter, it is about efficiency, logic and common sense first ! Defining a bit of theory and testing it is good before we jump into the mess of massive fleet fights ;)

Some basic scenarios for comm structure:

Roaming squad OP - under a dozen of people :
Tier1 CFT classification ?
- flight commander ?
- sub-level wing commander(s) ? (target calling is not efficient on flight command level if dogfighting spreads the fight too much).

Skirmish / Raider / Escort / Combat (...) OP - above a few dozens of people actually (50+ later on ?) :
Tier2 CFT classification ?
- fleet commander(s) ?
- flight commander(s) ?
- sub-level wing-commander(s) ?
- large-ship dedicated channels for crews and orders on ship level ?

Fleet Combined OP - the real deal, about a hundred of people and more, should be a model that adapt for thousands :
Tier3 CFT classification?
- fleet commander(s) ? (how to have a clear view of whats going on and organize comms on the flight command level on such a scale and for flight commanders to report situation ?).
- multiple flight commander(s) ?
- multiple sub-level wing-commander(s) ?
- multiple large-ship channels for crews and orders on ship level ?

Basic behavior required from people attending a combat OP in the future :
  • Not allowed to speak at all unless needed or told, comms need to be clear, only commanders should speak. This needs to be a culture in every fleet OP, that's not the case sometime, but it is normal since it is still an alpha and people dont loose any asset (or almost) when they disturb the OP. When people will start loosing stuff because of lack of discipline they will change ;)

The tools we need to communicate with must have :
  • Multi-level comms app like Guilded (where we are heading now). I am not familiar with Guilded multi-channel comm structure, is it infinite? Like we have a first level of comm, then a sub-level, then a sub-sub-level and so on and we can communicate from any level to any other level ? Or is it a straight chain of command level ? Discord is limited for that, and Teamspeak is a bit dated but used to be efficient ;
  • Ability to mute someone if need for a fleet/flight/wing commander (covered) ;
  • Push to talk mandatory (covered).

Some issues we will encounter in fight that we need to address regarding comms :
  • Efficiency of general combat awareness for the top fleet commander : can the leader of the OP have a clear view of whats going on during a fight in the actual sate of the game? (i dont think so) does he need to delegate this awareness and act only as a coordinator not fighting himself ? ;
  • Target calling : what mechanics should we need ingame to improve target designation and calling them in comms (on what level? fleet commander? flight-commanders? delegation and micro-management at wing level? we will probably need a bit of all according to the scale and the spread of the fight, this is potential wishlist for CIG) ;
  • Visibility & range of ennemy / spread of fight / target calling : an ennemy can be out of range thus not visible for some in the squad, preventing efficient fire focusing and target calling, and dogfighting tend to spread the combat over a large distance. Do we need to operate with multiple small wings calling targets for themselves? How to organize the wings from a global perspective for the flight commander to understand what is going on ? ;
  • Orders to be given within a single ship to its crew, and interaction between crew members : this cant be told on same comms as fleet/wing comms, we obviously need dedicated sub-comms for ships with crew, but crew also need to hear whats going on at least on the wing comm level ;
  • Standardization of comms : in most games when groups are playing together they tend to develop a form of standard comms. This will be the case here when we will play with our allies, we probably need to think about a structure of command that can easily adapt with other groups for comms. If we do not, it will mean that every org will act independently on the field and it is not good.
  • People need to understand whats going on in comms : if we partition comms too much using Guilded channels, they wont have a picture of what's going on globaly and only the fleet commander will. Sometime, an isolate initiative from someone understanding what's going on can save the day ! How to prevent this technically with Guilded?
  • When a commander dies : we need to know who is taking over. Every commander needs to designate a few others before battle to step up when needed. Regular CFT training with good comms will anyway allow anyone to understand how this works, and to be a potential replacement commander during a fight.
  • Casual players involved in an OP : they need to understand the vocabulary used for the OP, that is what Brevity is meant for, but if someone has to figure for 15 minutes what he needs to do before understanding and imitating others, it can be a weakness. Brevity needs to be distributed on a large scale to our player base. It also needs to be used in every OPs in TEST, not only run by Yellow Jackets.

What we currently have in-game (3.9.1) to help targeting ennemy and call target :
- You can pin a target for others in your squad (but can they see it if not in range ? Is it only for party leader ?).

I'm going to expand this post later.

Cheers !
 
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vahadar

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Everything is (almost) already in the Brevity, the vocabulary and the comms scenario !! :love:

It is a great base for comms discipline and organization, @marcsand2 this should be pinned somewhere and not distributed only in CFT (as i told you i got my first brevity doc at the very end of may from @placid, after attending a dozen CFT and TSMC sessions). If the brevity is only intended for Yellow Jackets, other players in TEST divisions (like Miners/Traders...) wont be familiar with combat comms and will just start screaming like little girls at the first sign of an ennemy.
In general, now that i am a bit more familiar with the vocabulary of the brevity, it is not even a quarter of people attending CFT that use it (and generally always the same, you, Cugino, Placid, Serious, Malarthyn, Icaro and so on), and most of you are already officers and know the tricks, what about the rest of us ?

I have not seen that kind of discipline in other ops i listened to, like the Mining ops, where you have lots of chitchat (which is understandable, mining is boring 😜 ). I do not say we need to enforce comms discipline for every single OP, it is total nonsence, and kills the fun, especially if no pew pew involved. But people should get used to basic comms and combat comms discipline as we will have more combined OPs within TEST in the future.

The combined OPs i've been part of so far were a total mess on comms and not because of Yellow Jackets. It was like listening to the commanding officer and people telling about their lives for the entire duration of the OP, about which i really dont care when i play during an OP, with an order given time to time, obviously covered by other people chitchat...
When Yellow Jackets are going to do combine OPs with other divisions, they need to lead the OP comms, really.

@marcsand2 I am not reproducing Brevity here because i dont know if you want to make it public, but you should πŸ˜‰
 
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Cugino83

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I really double both @vahadar post ad a whole, comms and coordination is something we HAVE to work to future event and game loop and I think we have to do it right now to be already prepare for the future.
Concerning @vahadar point let me provide my 2 cents.

Hello fellow Yellow Jackets πŸ––

Some issues we will encounter in fight that we need to address regarding comms :
  • Efficiency of general combat awareness for the top fleet commander : can the leader of the OP have a clear view of whats going on during a fight in the actual sate of the game? (i dont think so) does he need to delegate this awareness and act only as a coordinator not fighting himself ? ;
This is a big question, actually there isn't an obvius interface where the group leader can look at the whole combat situation (not global map, no global allied status etc), this can, in some sort, compensated by a combinatioon of leader skill and efficient comms with wings leader clearly provide report on the target engaged, pilot provide report on theyr status, ground troop comunicate enemy contact (contact, number, location type etc...) and so on.
Also some coordination on the team and wings will improve this situation: If there are two team and the team member stick together then combat leader only need to know the position of two elements rader the 8 man (combat team designed as 4-man squad).
Same for flght group: fi wings stick together then the Combat leader only need to know the activity of the whole wing and not of any single fighter, that will mean listen to 4 people (8 player, 4 wings of 2 player each).

  • Target calling : what mechanics should we need ingame to improve target designation and calling them in comms (on what level? fleet commander? flight-commanders? delegation and micro-management at wing level? we will probably need a bit of all according to the scale and the spread of the fight, this is potential wishlist for CIG) ;
That is actually difficult, I hope for the future that CIG implement a sharign target system, but for now I tink the best way is, for flight operations, to call both the pilot name, the enemy name AND the ship, like "Cugino, engaging DaddyChangus Sabre".
This will allow the leader and anyone in the team to know all the important information:
- who is doing that: Cugino and his wing
- what is doing: engaging combat
- who is the target: DaddyChangus
- what is the target: a sabre.

Concerning micro-management that is not racomanded on larger group and rewuired only for specific request like targeting a specific treat, all the other stuff has to be left to the squad or wing leader BUT to do so is mandatory to define a plan BEFORE the operation start: it doesnt need to be detailed, but plotting a general idea of the operation and the role of the different wings and squad will allow the wing/squad leader to know what to do and how to manage the squad to lead them according to the general plan direction.
Failing to plot a general plan will lead to every one to act by his own mind and will require the team leader to mico-manage everyone to carry out the plan.

  • Visibility & range of ennemy / spread of fight / target calling : an ennemy can be out of range thus not visible for some in the squad, preventing efficient fire focusing and target calling, and dogfighting tend to spread the combat over a large distance. Do we need to operate with multiple small wings calling targets for themselves? How to organize the wings from a global perspective for the flight commander to understand what is going on ? ;
This is not really a problem right now IMHO: if the wing/squad act as a single entity one the carget is in range and in line of sight for one member it will be also for the other member.
For support of a second squad/wing there is not really a necessity right now: is the target is not visible hou are for sure out of range, the only thing you need to look for is the marker of the squad you need to support, move closer and then the enemy marker will pop out.

  • Orders to be given within a single ship to its crew, and interaction between crew members : this cant be told on same comms as fleet/wing comms, we obviously need dedicated sub-comms for ships with crew, but crew also need to hear whats going on at least on the wing comm level ;
Agree, Guilded style nested comms is the way... in alternative we could set up some comms in-game (you can create a comms group without a party) and use that for comunication, but it sill be a bit complicated do to the necessity to switch from one comms to another... It could work if we start to use the discord voice chat for general channel and then setup an in-game channel for ship, both with PTT active so that commander can shoose to talk either on one channal or the other.

  • Standardization of comms : in most games when groups are playing together they tend to develop a form of standard comms. This will be the case here when we will play with our allies, we probably need to think about a structure of command that can easily adapt with other groups for comms. If we do not, it will mean that every org will act independently on the field and it is not good.
Really hard to came by, also this can be a problem that only impact higt rank command since every org will have his own command structure and operation procedure and each org combat gorup will also being manage only from theyr own org officer.

  • People need to understand whats going on in comms : if we partition comms too much using Guilded channels, they wont have a picture of what's going on globaly and only the fleet commander will. Sometime, an isolate initiative from someone understanding what's going on can save the day ! How to prevent this technically with Guilded?
Agree... sort of. I think only command officer should ahve a wider knowlage of the comms, while squad leader should have a more resticted one and normal squad member only be limited ot the squad channel.
Single one initiative could be good, but also blown up and entire plan if squad are not were theyr are suppose to be, so calling out a improvise initiative should be a careful choice.

  • When a commander dies : we need to know who is taking over. Every commander needs to designate a few others before battle to step up when needed. Regular CFT training with good comms will anyway allow anyone to understand how this works, and to be a potential replacement commander during a fight.
No argument here, just need to get used to this...

  • Casual players involved in an OP : they need to understand the vocabulary used for the OP, that is what Brevity is meant for, but if someone has to figure for 15 minutes what he needs to do before understanding and imitating others, it can be a weakness. Brevity needs to be distributed on a large scale to our player base. It also needs to be used in every OPs in TEST, not only run by Yellow Jackets.
For this I'm for an uncommon decision: prevent casual player to take part on large group and corrdinated operation. Sorry but for this kind of gameplay where a lots of corrdination is involved having someone not accustom to this and to operate in a team is not a good thing and will probably spoil the fun for others.
For this large event a minimal training should be mandatory: I don't mean months of operation, but at least attending an "introduction course" oof a couple of session where the rookies can be introduced to the brevity TEST standard, group combat and coordination should be mandatory.
This of course require that we ("we" intended as TEST officer and event organiser) provide this kind of training regurarly: we have done one already with basicc info for ship combat since it was requested by some new entry, it was a success, but we need to have it on reguar basis and expant it not only with basic combat information but actual wing/team coordinations during real combat situation, even organise come bounty hunting session witha group of 2-3 player (1 expert and 2 rookies) could be a good thing.

Everything is (almost) already in the Brevity, the vocabulary and the comms scenario !! :love:

It is a great base for comms discipline and organization, @marcsand2 this should be pinned somewhere and not distributed only in CFT (as i told you i got my first brevity doc at the very end of may from @placid, after attending a dozen CFT and TSMC sessions). If the brevity is only intended for Yellow Jackets, other players in TEST divisions (like Miners/Traders...) wont be familiar with combat comms and will just start screaming like little girls at the first sign of an ennemy.
In general, now that i am a bit more familiar with the vocabulary of the brevity, it is not even a quarter of people attending CFT that use it (and generally always the same, you, Cugino, Placid, Serious, Malarthyn, Icaro and so on), and most of you are already officers and know the tricks, what about the rest of us ?
Agree with that, the problem of not using brevity is, I think, that most of the CFT attendant are regular player that already know the drill and tend to skip the comunication becouse, let be honest, after a while a command know that a specific pilot is ready giving a reasonable time frame. We flight together a lot and after a while there is a sinergy that overcome the comms comunication, things simple happen as they should naturally.
This of course tend to be a problem when there are 1-2 new player that found themself compleatly loss on what is happening and also put the seasoned player in the position of considering some action granted by the new player when, of course, this is not...

I have not seen that kind of discipline in other ops i listened to, like the Mining ops, where you have lots of chitchat (which is understandable, mining is boring 😜 ). I do not say we need to enforce comms discipline for every single OP, it is total nonsence, and kills the fun, especially if no pew pew involved. But people should get used to basic comms and combat comms discipline as we will have more combined OPs within TEST in the future.

The combined OPs i've been part of so far were a total mess on comms and not because of Yellow Jackets. It was like listening to the commanding officer and people telling about their lives for the entire duration of the OP, about which i really dont care when i play during an OP, with an order given time to time, obviously covered by other people chitchat...
When Yellow Jackets are going to do combine OPs with other divisions, they need to lead the OP comms, really.
This is the only point I don't really agree with: Yellow Jaket is the military division and even in the case of joint operation with other TEST division chat channel should and must be separate: Rockrider should have theyr own comms while YJ still have they own.
In case YJ division will be called to provide security for particular operation there should be some connection element that have access to the "other division channel" but witha limited interaction, like only ship captain adn commandin officers, or the security chief of a larger ship (a YJ member) and so on.
Enforcing a comms discipline based on "military standard" on a non combat trained personell is a lost and desperate fight, and not a right one also: let every section develope theyr comms protocol if needed, combat division will have and use his own, we (Yellow Jacket) only need to lear how to interact with the "comms shenigans" of the other division (like shooting them dead or make they collaps after the next pint of beer...😊)
 

Mich Angel

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This is all good commitment and all that but at this time in SC and as we know the communication tech will be updated it's fairly pointless to try to go deep in it at this point..

It have been tried before countless times, but as SC is in such flux and constantly evolving and anything you come up with today might be redundant the next day/patch etc..

Self discipline to know when to talk is left to the individual during ops, or training.. so far that been working most of the times.. ( all are their own captain you know πŸ€ͺ 🀣 ) ha ha..

Pushing for to much structure to early in TEST never worked to well in the long run, so far tho some progress have been made for sure.

Keep it simple, even if it is complicated always works best and at this point go with what we have until something radical changes seem to be the simplest solution at the moment.

Just saying and something to think about, ambition and dedication is commended but there is a time and place for everything, right.

CHEERS! 🍻
 
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vahadar

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This is not really a problem right now IMHO: if the wing/squad act as a single entity one the carget is in range and in line of sight for one member it will be also for the other member.
For support of a second squad/wing there is not really a necessity right now: is the target is not visible hou are for sure out of range, the only thing you need to look for is the marker of the squad you need to support, move closer and then the enemy marker will pop out.
Imagine this with a 100vs100 people in a dogfight, it will be like 25-50 squads vs 25-50 squads (if a squad is 2-4 ppl) πŸ˜… I wonder how will capital radar or scanner might help a fleet having a global view of the field, will smaller ships be able to have a link with bigger ships that have better scanner? Otherwise it will be like free for all, and we will see tactics from the ennemy with groups trying to spread the fight then regrouping to lure and force us to fight scattered and/or not focused on target.

Really hard to came by, also this can be a problem that only impact higt rank command since every org will have his own command structure and operation procedure and each org combat gorup will also being manage only from theyr own org officer.
Yes, i was not very clear, here i meant that as one of the biggest org (the biggest org), we will naturaly develop a standard that other orgs might adopt. And/or we will borrow from others methods too. On the long run, you will see that comms will get standardized because many orgs will play together and not on the fleet command level only.

Agree... sort of. I think only command officer should ahve a wider knowlage of the comms, while squad leader should have a more resticted one and normal squad member only be limited ot the squad channel.
Single one initiative could be good, but also blown up and entire plan if squad are not were theyr are suppose to be, so calling out a improvise initiative should be a careful choice.
I wasnt very clear here. I will assume we have a structure like that fit for hundreds of pilots : Fleet command > Flight command > Wing command > Squad > Crew.
I 100% agree with you, global knowledge is not usefull on the tactical level for wings and squads, but you generally need to be aware of your surrounding and what the wings immediatly next to you are doing within a same flight command (himself under a fleet command). If comms are too partitioned, we will have some kind of micromanagement to make information come back to the top level (Fleet level, through Flight level, through Wing level, through Squad level) and then going back down to the Wing level.
For exemple, two wings operate within the same Flight Command, one wing is about to need support but Flight commander has not called for it and Wing commander does not realize he is is deep shit because both are not aware for whatever reason, the other wing is finished with its targets understand they can switch to helping the first wing because they have an awareness of the immediate fighting in the field thanks to comms and the critical situation of that wing.
Another scenario by extension : this neighbooring wing can also be within another Flight command, so what do we do with comms in that case since those wings are supposed to be on seperate comm channels (under differents Flight commanders)?
This is the kind of initiative i'm talking about.

So the question behind this is : as we segment a fleet in multiple flight themselves segmented in multiple wings (8 people) shall the wings hear each others (or at least commander of said wings) or not. Shall a wing also be divided in squad (4 men) on comms? I think not for the squad level as CFT prooves that a trained team of 8 can communicate and fight without cluttering comms, so we can have multiple squads operating on the same comm channel without interference.

This is the only point I don't really agree with: Yellow Jaket is the military division and even in the case of joint operation with other TEST division chat channel should and must be separate: Rockrider should have theyr own comms while YJ still have they own.
In case YJ division will be called to provide security for particular operation there should be some connection element that have access to the "other division channel" but witha limited interaction, like only ship captain adn commandin officers, or the security chief of a larger ship (a YJ member) and so on.
Enforcing a comms discipline based on "military standard" on a non combat trained personell is a lost and desperate fight, and not a right one also: let every section develope theyr comms protocol if needed, combat division will have and use his own, we (Yellow Jacket) only need to lear how to interact with the "comms shenigans" of the other division (like shooting them dead or make they collaps after the next pint of beer...😊)
Of course you are right as long as we will be able to partition our comms in the future with Guilded. My comment was more related to our actual use of Discord for combined ops, which is not very efficient. And my remark about Yellow Jacket taking over lead was if we continue with Discord until we fully moved to Guilded.
 
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vahadar

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Just saying and something to think about, ambition and dedication is commended but there is a time and place for everything, right.
Very true πŸ˜‰ still even at alpha stage when we have an OP of 20-30 people we need to be organized, and we can start doing this early or not ;) and just on the comm organization level, it will scale naturally after.
Not even thinking about game UI, targeting or fleet commanding tools for swarm of pilots, this is for later, right now we can just make drama and serious post like these about stuff that dont exist yet ingame but well ;)
 
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Mich Angel

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Very true πŸ˜‰ still even at alpha stage when we have an OP of 20-30 people we need to be organized, and we can start doing this early or not ;)
Yeah but that is called structured pre-planing and have little to do with communication, tho communication does rely on it been done well once put in motion.

Structured Pe-planing is what most time fail when it's to many variation in it that can go sideways as it often tend to be more complicated than it have to be.

And don't forget the most important as it is Alpha don't take it to serious it's to early for that and make it more a fun thing and go for basic stuff that will survive a change.

We don't follow the pyramid model very well in this org, our model is a bit more a jumbled square. ha ha ha...

So Keep it simple and it's easy to follow and make it fun, and remember for any one, it's okay to screw up, don't make it a big deal, this always work great in TEST.

As most of us know what ever they learn today might be useless knowledge tomorrow, the Alpha "catch 22." or as some say "You can't eat the Cake and keep it."


CHEERS! 🍻
 
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vahadar

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Yeah but that is called structured pre-planing and have little to do with communication, tho communication does rely on it been done well once put in motion.

Structured Pe-planing is what most time fail when it's to many variation in it that can go sideways as it often tend to be more complicated than it have to be.
I would agree in general if it was just about SC itself, but here it is not just about it (SC = not finished as you said), more about the tools (here Guilded = finished) and ways we will use to communicate (Brevity = finished?, comm structure still has to be clarified beyond Brevity).
Most of my assumptions based themselves more on the tool (Guilded) and how we use it (disciplined comms) than the game itself (that will obviously change). We already know that we will fight with hundreds if not more pilots, and that is enough to start organizing our comms.
The details about the game mechanics (UI...) will then dictate how we precisely organize the comm in the end (thanks to targeting, map, radar or whatever UI tool can help us).
Still now there is nothing wrong in theorizing comms discipline already with the tool, as boring and not TEST friendly as it may be πŸ˜… outside of game, it will adapt naturally to the game after.
 
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Mich Angel

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I would agree in general if it was just about SC itself, but here it is not just about the game itself (SC - not finished), more about the tools (here Guilded - finished) and ways (Brevity - finished?, comm structure still has to be clarified beyond Brevity) we will use to communicate.
Most of my assumptions based themselves more on the tool (Guilded) and how we use it (disciplined comms) than the game itself (that will obviously change). We already know that we will fight with hundreds if not more pilots, and that is enough to start organizing our comms.
The details about the game mechanics (UI...) will then dictate how we precisely organize the comm in the end (thanks to targeting, map, radar or whatever UI tool can help us).
Still now there is nothing wrong in theorizing comms discipline already with the tool, as boring and not TEST friendly as it may be πŸ˜… outside of game, it will adapt naturally to the game after.
Absolutely as I said commitment, dedication, ambition is always commended, but it have a nasty habit of bit you in the ass. ha ha...

As for Guilded I don't use it as many, many others and probably never will, as we already have TEST forum, Discord, Spectrum... So yeah why not add one more thing to confuse people even more.

IMO stick with one ( keep it simple) and all know where to go for right information, it also help anyone planing a operation, anything from a mining, hulling, fun day to a dogfight scenario.

At this time that is not easy to know the where to go for info, that is a mess at this time in space so to say...

and before that structure is settled one can theory craft all one want for sure ( might come up with some smart solution right )

But at the end of the day, it's more likely to be a waste of time sadly...

Cause there is to much in flux and there is nothing solid settled yet and will most likely not be until we see where SC is going with the Org. tools, communication, spectrum etc.etc..etc ..

So for sure theory craft all you can, go for it, but don't hold your breath... just saying :like: 🀟

CHEERS! 🍻
 
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vahadar

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IMO stick with one ( keep it simple) and all know where to go for right information, it also help anyone planing a operation, anything from a mining, hulling, fun day to a dogfight scenario.
I think that the actual plan from @Montoya is for TEST to test πŸ˜‰ Guilded and potentialy moved to this tool over Discord. This does not mean people wont use Discord anymore, just that Yellow Jackets might fully move to Guilded.
Guilded offers better nested comms than Discord, but right now we still do not use it regulary.

So testing that tool means pratice comms in OPs, CFT, hence organization and so on to fully exploit the potential of Guilded.
 
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Mich Angel

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I think that the actual plan from @Montoya is for TEST to test πŸ˜‰ Guilded and potentialy moved to this tool over Discord. This does not mean people wont use Discord anymore, just that Yellow Jackets might fully move to Guilded.
Guilded offers better nested comms than Discord, but right now we still do not use it regulary.

So testing that tool means pratice comms in OPs, CFT, hence organization and so on to fully exploit the potential of Guilded.
Yeah Guilded seem to be heading the right direction for sure.. one can hope it does. Seen to may of those oh a new best thing yeaii.. then later a new best thing and yeah... been there done that.

I'll wait for now, but I'm keeping a watchful eye on it.. :D
 
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vahadar

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I pulled this from the retro archive (late 2018)
View: https://youtu.be/DajniYpfyzc

View: https://youtu.be/DajniYpfyzc?t=321

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DajniYpfyzc&feature=youtu.be&t=626

timestamps there for viewer convenience, we engage 3 different org fleets within 10 minute timeframe
This is the protect Retaliator mission except for its vs real enemies ;D
Agree with that, the problem of not using brevity is, I think, that most of the CFT attendant are regular player that already know the drill and tend to skip the comunication becouse, let be honest, after a while a command know that a specific pilot is ready giving a reasonable time frame. We flight together a lot and after a while there is a sinergy that overcome the comms comunication, things simple happen as they should naturally.
This of course tend to be a problem when there are 1-2 new player that found themself compleatly loss on what is happening and also put the seasoned player in the position of considering some action granted by the new player when, of course, this is not...
Was too tired to comment further yesterday :)
This video sequence is awsome, clear comms, use of combat slang (brevity) that tells a lot just with few words, wing structure and orders... Basically all the boring wall of text i wrote in the OP is summed up here, just need to nest comms when more people and fights scale up. So why dont we practice like that for weekly CFT πŸ˜‰ 😍😍

Cugino is 100% right, you guys fly together, are regulars, and in the end dont really use the brevity because you know each others and work in sinergy, but newcomers like myself need to blend somehow and be taught also that way to communicate πŸ˜‰
 
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Was too tired to comment further yesterday :)
This video sequence is awsome, clear comms, use of combat slang (brevity) that tells a lot just with few words, wing structure and orders... Basically all the boring wall of text i wrote in the OP is summed up here, just need to nest comms when more people and fights scale up. So why dont we practice like that for weekly CFT πŸ˜‰ 😍😍
Well I saw this video this morning and first I'm impressed how stable and fluid was back then: few weeks ago we had a CFT event with like 20 player in total (split beteween attacher and defender) and it was a mess: no pips, no target signs, no players name... totally implayable... in those condition attempting somenthign like brevity and coordination was at best freaking hard.
Second thinkg I wish, really wish, we could reach this kind of comunication, but this need to overcome the attitude of the player involved: I the party is composed by playes that not only play together but are also accustom to the brevity protcol (in general, not the TEST specific) this will come automatically, if the most of the player are used to play mo0re casually and without any radio protocol... well that need A LOT of work to reach this state.

Cugino is 100% right, you guys fly together, are regulars, and in the end dont really use the brevity because you know each others and work in sinergy, but newcomers like myself need to blend somehow and be taught also that way to communicate πŸ˜‰
Well first of all where ware you during the last event??? We miss you and need you since you stillhave some experience in large group fighting!

That sayed we are aware of the problem and we are trying to introduce some "basic training" both for piloting tecnique, ship management and of course brevity and coordinations, propblem is there are very few regular player at the event and building the skill and the dquad coordination take time.
Be clear, I'm not complaining the lack of attendance (there is not at the moment, and quite the opposite in fact...), but having player that shows up maybe once a month make things a bit complicated since "wash away" the bit of coordination and comunication skill that ware acquire at the previus session.
Still we are working on this aspect and will try to plan some basic training regularly for new TEST member and new player in general, hope the attendance will continue like the last time.
 

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Well first of all where ware you during the last event??? We miss you and need you since you stillhave some experience in large group fighting!
Was in vacation for 3 weeks without my gaming rig, and came back just last week ^^ I attended last saturday CFT, but since we stopped at like 3 in the morning with that post CFT briefing i was too tired for the sunday marine training πŸ˜‰ I'll be there this week-end for sure, i missed playing a lot :)

EDIT :
Also i dont think my experience of large scale fighting for Eve would be valuable for SC, apart maybe for giving tips on comm structure, like the problem i raised in original post, but problem half-solved it seems. You guys are already aware of the problem anyway. Eve is really a different game and those tips might not be relevant.

We will need to understand SC first and understand how to fight (you guys are already way ahead for that) and what tactic to develop, we might even need to wait for release to understand that in full. We would need to know by heart the combat mechanics, the specs of the different ships available and so on. I am really wayyyyyy off that level, i am a noob here, and am only starting training fighting, watching you all guys.
Besides you already have plenty of great officers and that video shows it.

That sayed we are aware of the problem and we are trying to introduce some "basic training" both for piloting tecnique, ship management and of course brevity and coordinations, propblem is there are very few regular player at the event and building the skill and the dquad coordination take time.
Be clear, I'm not complaining the lack of attendance (there is not at the moment, and quite the opposite in fact...), but having player that shows up maybe once a month make things a bit complicated since "wash away" the bit of coordination and comunication skill that ware acquire at the previus session.
Still we are working on this aspect and will try to plan some basic training regularly for new TEST member and new player in general, hope the attendance will continue like the last time.
I'd like to do some roaming in CFT versus other orgs like i see in that video 😍 That will be great training πŸ”«πŸ”«πŸ”«β˜ 
 
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since we stopped at like 3 in the morning with that post CFT briefing i was too tired for the sunday marine training
OK, Sunday I skipped the debriefing at 2:30.

Ow damn, do you also have a TL;DR.

I can put a wall of text here, but it all comes down to this here:

I can mute, I can use priority talk, I can use tiered comms....but I don't, I show respect. What I really need and what every other lead also needs is as stupid as it sounds: respect. You come to an event or an OP. The guy in lead has a task.. Give him the time to explain, to get his shit organized, to get his task going......

If someone else is lead, a few times I got the remark: Marc, what are you so quiet? Very simple, I show the lead respect. I only speak when it is necessary. I also chat, but only when circumstances allow it. Or if someone has a question, I can answer it so lead doesn't has to bother and can concentrate on his stuff.

Imagine this with a 100vs100 people in a dogfight, it will be like 25-50 squads vs 25-50 squads (if a squad is 2-4 ppl)
In a dogfight you have wings. 100 vs 100 isn't a dogfight, it is a huge mosh pit.Survival of the fittest. You send in the flights (a group of wings) and let them do their thing. Hopefully they are good trained, then the chance of being successful is increased. That is the goal of CFT
 

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OK, Sunday I skipped the debriefing at 2:30.

Ow damn, do you also have a TL;DR.

I can put a wall of text here, but it all comes down to this here:

I can mute, I can use priority talk, I can use tiered comms....but I don't, I show respect. What I really need and what every other lead also needs is as stupid as it sounds: respect. You come to an event or an OP. The guy in lead has a task.. Give him the time to explain, to get his shit organized, to get his task going......

If someone else is lead, a few times I got the remark: Marc, what are you so quiet? Very simple, I show the lead respect. I only speak when it is necessary. I also chat, but only when circumstances allow it. Or if someone has a question, I can answer it so lead doesn't has to bother and can concentrate on his stuff.


In a dogfight you have wings. 100 vs 100 isn't a dogfight, it is a huge mosh pit.Survival of the fittest. You send in the flights (a group of wings) and let them do their thing. Hopefully they are good trained, then the chance of being successful is increased. That is the goal of CFT
Spot on, 🍻
 
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