Your opinion. What's acceptable on mumble?

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Shive

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Hello and welcome.

This thread is one of those few threads where I require you sober, so we can have a good healthy conversation.

Disclaimer: This thread is not targeted against any one single individual, this is purely an attempt to establish an organization-wide agreement upon what kind of chat belongs where and when.

Rules/Etiquette on mumble as of right now (written ad hoc):
1. Push-to-talk enforced in general chat
2. Don't put in racist pictures or text in your comment, temporary chat description or title.
3. Don't directly flame another test member

Right now that's all we really enforce, as people tend to be able to behave and make the overall experience a plus.
Officially we've said that we follow the rules stated on RSI - those rules however are extremely strict and allows for very, very wide and subjective interpretation - basically everything can be an offense. See the rules here: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/86002/forum-rules-moderator-responsibilities-updated-11-26-14#latest

In my humble opinion, if we truly do follow those rules, I will not only have to ban myself permanently, but I will have to ban nearly everyone I've spoken to.

I believe this is a Montoya quote: "We do not tell you how to play the game, we just provide the environment and atmosphere to make it better!"

We've sold the organization as free-minded, both in gameplay, but also chat-wise as we've catered to drunks :p, so there's a place and time for everything, which contradicts the rules of RSI - also I've been requested multiple members on multiple occasions to enforce moderation on people that are against the rules of RSI, (which still everything basically is) but I am hesitant to do so because we stand in a dilemma where our "freedom of speech" is compromised if we truly do so.

Why are you here?
I would like to start a discussion about what kind of community you want to have here in test? How free-minded are we, are there limits? When does the freedom of one overshadow the freedom of another?
I will monitor the responses on this thread.

This discussion is made with mumble in mind, knowing we have a Drunk tank, aka our R18-chatroom.

A member approached me and said that they did not think chatting about drugs is okay.
Having a lenient rule-set, I have to ask why is it not okay? When is it excessive? Is all drug chat banned? Should they be moved to Drunk Tank? When should they be moved to Drunk Tank?

Is Drunk Tank just an R18-rated chat, or is it for chat that we frown upon?

Maybe to further spark a fruitful conversation, you can see a short little discussion I started on RSI-test-chat with two other members:

(9:18:09 AM) Shive: Someone wants it to be so that, if you talk about drugs you should be moved to drunk tank on mumble.
(9:18:11 AM) Shive: Thoughts?
(9:18:28 AM) bdg: im american
(9:18:34 AM) bdg: freespeech and bald eagles
(9:18:41 AM) bdg: let em talk about whatever they want
(9:20:30 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Man, drugs is drugs. People gonna drug, I don't care if people drug, what they do is their business. But when people wank on about drugging, like in /r/trees as if they are so enlightened, shit gets old fast
(9:21:10 AM) bdg: its not like people in the chat are at the mercy of whoever is talking
(9:21:17 AM) bdg: they have the power to change the conversation
(9:21:35 AM) bdg: no need for administrative intervention if change is already in the user's power
(9:22:50 AM) Shive: Okay cool :)
(9:22:57 AM) Shive: I think so too
(9:23:06 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Tru that.
(9:23:23 AM) Shive: But gotta ask around :O it's hard to speak on behalf of others
(9:23:31 AM) bdg: it's good that u did
(9:23:35 AM) bdg: very democratic and shit
(9:24:45 AM) Shive: That's me
(9:24:50 AM) Shive: Shive the care-taker
(9:24:58 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Yeah. I mean I can understand that it makes some people uncomfortable, and people that are made uncomfartable by that conversation will probably be the type of people that have trouble changing the conversation
(9:25:14 AM) that_frog_kurtis: But it's not like they have to be in mumble either.
(9:25:35 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Adults gonna adult
(9:26:05 AM) bdg: should not have drank coffee at 2am
(9:26:07 AM) Shive: That said, it's not a society we have here, it's a community, and we actually have the power to shape it the way we want
(9:26:08 AM) bdg: not gonna lie
(9:26:10 AM) Shive: I'm not saying it is
(9:26:25 AM) Shive: but imagine, if 50% of test chat was people in prison
(9:26:37 AM) Shive: imagine how broken the conversations would be
(9:26:49 AM) Shive: That was pretty presumptious of me to say like that, but please roll with it
(9:27:00 AM) Shive: What chance does the last 50% have?
(9:27:08 AM) Shive: I'm pretty sure it would cater to so few people
(9:27:16 AM) Shive: that the prison-minded people would take over
(9:27:19 AM) Shive: and push the others out
(9:27:25 AM) Shive: even though they have the power to speak up
(9:27:45 AM) Shive: I'm not saying you're a bad person because you've done drugs or do them
(9:27:45 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Just have a R18 channel for bullshitting. Or is that what the drunk tank is?
(9:28:01 AM) Shive: Drunk tank is for when you wanna talk about sexy time :p
(9:28:11 AM) Shive: Yes
(9:28:17 AM) Shive: Drunk tank is the R18 chat
(9:28:29 AM) Shive: The argument was
(9:28:34 AM) Audax Phidippus left the room.
(9:28:35 AM) Shive: We have kids coming through general chat from time to time
(9:28:37 AM) Shive: new members
(9:28:44 AM) Shive: Is this really the first we want them to see?
(9:28:55 AM) bdg: by kids
(9:28:57 AM) Shive: Does it make for a nice community? Is this what you want the chat to be talking about?
(9:29:01 AM) bdg: what do you mean?
(9:29:14 AM) Shive: Youngest member I know of that is registered
(9:29:15 AM) that_frog_kurtis: >18
(9:29:16 AM) Shive: is 11
(9:29:20 AM) Shive: but onwards
(9:29:24 AM) Shive: 13 is gonna be the lowest
(9:29:32 AM) bdg: i think it's fine
(9:29:50 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Yeah, or just people without headphones who may have younger family around
(9:29:56 AM) Shive: But we can also differentiate between etiquette and rules
(9:30:43 AM) bdg: this is getting pretty philosophical, but let's take RSI general chat (forum) as an example
(9:30:49 AM) Shive: Sure
(9:30:57 AM) bdg: would you consider the community nice? i wouldn't
(9:31:03 AM) bdg: however that place is still highly moderated
(9:31:05 AM) that_frog_kurtis: I think having some PG standards in general is fine if the drunk tank is there to cater for the other fuckers
(9:31:34 AM) bdg: it's all about the people not the moderation
(9:31:38 AM) bdg: we have a good crowd here
(9:32:03 AM) Shive: That's exactly my point bdg, while I agree with what you guys said earlier
(9:32:08 AM) Shive: I can't help but be a little bit worried
(9:32:16 AM) Shive: if our softies are pushed away
(9:32:24 AM) Shive: in favour of R18-chatting people
(9:32:31 AM) Shive: does that affect our community?
(9:32:33 AM) Shive: if so how?
(9:32:35 AM) Shive: Do we want this?

(9:33:14 AM) bdg: yeah that is a real dilemna
(9:33:25 AM) Shive: That said, I go full R18 myself sometimes
(9:33:36 AM) Shive: But I do my best to moderate myself
(9:33:40 AM) that_frog_kurtis: I don't think anyone would be too worried with some standards being put in place, so long as it wasn't nazi control. Let people get a bit rowdy and if it continues then move them down
(9:33:50 AM) that_frog_kurtis: Anyway, pub time.
(9:33:53 AM) that_frog_kurtis: seeyas
(9:33:58 AM) Shive: Cya froggy
(9:34:02 AM) Shive: thx for the chat

Please be respectful as always people and note that when speaking about groups of people other test members are bound to be part of those groups, so don't make anyone feel unnecessarily headhunted, thanks.
 

that_frog_kurtis

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I'll just take a moment to reiterate what I thought. I don't think it would be good to have a strict PG only general chat. I think there is space for swearing and dirty jokes and what have you, but if you want to get into a full blown convo about the filthy shit you got up to with your missus last night, or all the latest hallucinogens you've been on and details of their effects, maybe its a good time to take it to the drunk tank.
 
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honcho12

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I think it'd be cool if we frowned on bigotry in general, not just racism? I think rude jokes are fine and all, but discussing how much you hate different groups of people would be fucked up(unless it's Tmobile employees, I hate them all).

Also, how young an audience do we want to go for?

I agree with the frog.
 
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CGPepper

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I think it'd be cool if we frowned on bigotry in general, not just racism? I think rude jokes are fine and all, but discussing how much you hate different groups of people would be fucked up(unless it's Tmobile employees, I hate them all).

Also, how young an audience do we want to go for?

I agree with the frog.
Yeah, i hate when those american pigs are being bigots against Arabs and Russians.
Lets ban them all
 

PSIcoh

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So while I may be new to the group, I've also had a lot of experience with this exact scenario.

My old group had this same problem because we were actually a Reddit built Guild Wars 2 group. We ended up building it to about 1200 people and regularly had 200+ members in mumble (both from our group and from other groups) at the height of our activity/power. When you get that many people together - you're inevitably going to have clashing ideals/philosophies. We had very similar rules in place in part because we ended up joining a server at launch that had been designated the LGBT-friendly server and the RP server. A lot of those players joined us. We had a general rule to keep things civil, no racist, sexist, homophobic, etc content. You were free to talk about any topic so long as it was a civil discussion and not just a person making hateful comments. If anyone ever felt uncomfortable in a mumble channel - they were encouraged to A) speak up (for those brave enough) or B) contact a mod/admin to ask them to move to the mature channel or ease up on a certain topic.

If someone DID say something that broke our rules, depending on the severity we had various courses of action to take with them. If it was just a passing joke, comment, clearly meant no harm - we just messaged them or pulled them aside and said "easy on the jokes...". If they made some seriously messed up comments (truly hateful speech) - we pulled them out of the channel immediately and told them goodbye. Period. We had the stance that this was a welcoming gaming group that wanted to create an environment for everyone to enjoy themselves. Leave the drama at the door.

RE: Drugs/potentially uncomfortable topics - I'm fine with people talking about uncomfortable topics like drugs, it's not my cup of tea, but I enjoy stimulating conversations and discussions. So long as more uncomfortable members have a channel to potentially remedy their discomfort I'm fine with it.

RE: Mumble in general - I think so long as the mods/admins are open about stating that anyone can contact them about things related to mumble it should be okay.
 
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Krystal LeChuck

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I think it'd be cool if we frowned on bigotry in general, not just racism? I think rude jokes are fine and all, but discussing how much you hate different groups of people would be fucked up(unless it's Tmobile employees, I hate them all).

Also, how young an audience do we want to go for?

I agree with the frog.
People can frown upon anything they like, it is in their principal freedoms. However I do not think that racism or bigotry should be moderated. I can be a racist, I can be a bigot, no one has the right to force me otherwise. However in my opinion HATE SPEECH is something that needs to be moderated. It is different to say "Hey I don't like [insert racial/sexual/belief group here]" , than saying "[insert racial/sexual/belief group here] are evil and should be [insert hate action here], god damn [insert slur]".

Also since we are going to have kids and we already have kids in the org or around our listeners, all drug, alcohol, sexual and highly profane conversations should take place in an R-18 channel. In broader terms, don't say stuff in General Chat that you wouldn't say in front of a minor.

I think that should cover it.

My -.02$
 

Montoya

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Krystal pretty much summed it up in the post above, but with some corrections I need to make.

But just another word of advice regarding the free speech argument:

(9:18:28 AM) bdg: im american
(9:18:34 AM) bdg: freespeech and bald eagles
(9:18:41 AM) bdg: let em talk about whatever
It hurts my head when read these kind of comments.

Free speech applies to public places. If I want to go stand in front of the mayors office and shout about how much I hate Pepsi, I can, that right is protected.

If I walk into the head office of Pepsi and shout about how much I hate Pepsi, they can throw me out of the building.

TEST Mumble is not public property. By joining our comms you have agreed to abide by our rules.
 
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Montoya

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However I do not think that racism or bigotry should be moderated. I can be a racist, I can be a bigot, no one has the right to force me otherwise.
There is a fine line here.

The thing is we know you, you are a regular.

If a newbie comes into chat and starts going off about Jews and blacks, he will quickly find himself banned.

Should racism and bigotry be moderated? Absolutely!

You said it yourself:

don't say stuff in General Chat that you wouldn't say in front of a minor.

Herein lies another problem, some people are assholes and/or stupid, and see no problem with being racist and bigots in front of kids, these people do not belong in TEST.
 

SeungRyul

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General Chat is where you go to talk about the latest games you are playing, the awesome lunch you had, or how you lost everything when you upgraded to Windows 10. It is not a place to spew political views, controversial topics such as drugs, etc.

We pride ourselves on being easy-going and humorous, lets keep it that way and it makes moderation that much easier (I hate moderating it is just a necessary evil for the very few who want to flame everyone). At least we aren't running a Minecraft server, I had to ban little kiddies by the hour.
 

Montoya

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On the topic of drugs, very simple, don't discuss it in general chat.

Politics?

IMO US politics is ok if you are not a fanatic who automatically assumes anybody with a differing opinion to yours must be a complete idiot. If you can treat others with respect and not get offended when everybody else disagrees with you, then yeah, its probably ok.

However, in my experience, most people who discuss US politics do it with the same drive and energy as discussing their favorite sports team. I have seen friendships destroyed because one guy said the other guys team was stupid.

For this very reason it is often best to avoid the topic, we are here to play a game and relax, not get all worked up about political garbage.

International politics are tricky, we have members from all over the world and somebody is bound to get pissed off. Best to avoid it unless its small group of people that you know.
 

Krystal LeChuck

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There is a fine line here.

The thing is we know you, you are a regular.
Hey! I'm not a racist! I hate every human being equally for different reasons!

However you are right. Racism, sexism and bigotry of any kind are not appropriate for GenChat. Maybe between regulars there can be "playful" slurs of one kind or the other but I believe that people have (in most cases) the ability to distinguish between a joke in good/bad taste and an asshole.

In other cases we can moderate and/or call upon the mighty ban hammer.

Now if kids are present I suggest people wanting to discuss more mature matters to kindly make their ways towards adult channels and keep GenChat as clean as possible.

Also, Push to Talk must be enforced and violators must be punished by death.
 

GrammarGestapo

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I agree we should always be respectful. I was going to list a few temp channel names to ask whether they would be okay, but if I have to ask I probably shouldn't use them.

And yeah, politics should be avoided, unless you're in a small little temp channel where it is stated you're discussing politics.
 
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Black Sunder

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If you wouldn't say something in front of your mom then don't say it on mumble unless you know all the people listening. Its as simple as that really.

p.s. Eve Online gave me adamantium plating as skin so nothing bothers me all that much anymore when it comes to online chat.
 
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DontTouchMyHoHos

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When you get to a certain size ot doesnt come down to what is accepted and what isnt. It comes down to do we cater to the offended or the offenser and that will never go to a path both parties like, ever. Someone will be pissed. Mute if you dont lile the conversation. The sole purpose of mute is to avoid things you dont like. If you fail to mute someone than you just want to asert your control over someone and make them bend to your will.

There is 100% zero reason why someone cant mute another. To not do so means you want them to bend to your needs because of your opinion or beliefs.

In this case everyone who fails to take responsible action to put effort to make this an evironment for everyone and either a remove themselves from the situation or be mute them is just asserting themselves on to someone else asking them to bend to their needs and ignore their own which is hypocricy.

I could careless which way it goes, i get online and play with people of both spectrums whom i argue with and against. To me waht makes a community great is having this ability and still being friends having fun.

Asking someone nicely still doesnt give you the power to demand that people listen to you because you were nice about it.

It is impossible to appease everyone at a certain size because of the varying degrees of personalities. So everyone needs to police themselves by removing themselves from a situation they dont like instead of demanding that their opinions hold law.
 
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vindslav

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How about the simple, 'don't be a dick' rule.

As DontTouchMyHoHos pretty much stated, people will get offended and there isn't a bloody thing you can do about it. The intent behind those words though is more important, and more than often ignored. If someone is being a dick, just remove them, even just momentarily so they can blow off steam. Who knows, they may have had a shitty day and just want a punching bag, or more likely with this lot, found themselves a stash of grog. If it continues, remove them completely.

I am sure those in charge of this opperation will have enough on their hands full enough as it is, let alone trying to actually having time to enjoy themselves in game at the same time, no need to turn them into baby sitters.


I am surprised that there are people in this org under the age of 18. I thought a constant high blood-alcohol rating was required to be in this joint? Just who is giving these minors grog? Where am I?

Another option is to give everyone mod perms in mumble, and let it take care of itself. Now that could be entertaining.
 

NKato

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There is 100% zero reason why someone cant mute another. To not do so means you want them to bend to your needs because of your opinion or beliefs.
Quoting for truth, because The Dickbutt Lord has commandeth thine truth be made clear.
 

WarrenPeace

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I go by the golden rule, "don't be a dick." I'd say don't make an effort to offend or hurt anyone; if someone is offended and politely asks you to modify or change the topic, be polite and do so.

On the other hand, if they start coming across as a raging asshole, that's not cool. At that point mute them, or let the weight of the mighty Modhammer fall upon them. But don't escalate. That just makes it worse for everyone.

Of course, this only applies to general chat. If you're in a sub-channel like the Drunk Tank or a Let's Discuss All The Ways My Most Hated Political Group Is Wrong And Should Be Banned From Life, gloves are off. You know exactly what you're getting into.
 

Ichiru

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Agree with most of whats been said in here already.

In an org as large as ours you will encounter many people of different opinions/beliefs/cultures/orientations, that is guarenteed. I always believe that you are fully entitled to your own opinions, however you should be aware of your potential surroundings and should try to be respectful in general chat. There will of course be banter, but we should try and keep things tasteful.

In terms of dealing with incidents, I do believe in education as the first point of action. Some people may not realise that what they have said is offensive to others and if they are called out on this, then they may change their ways. However for persistent offenders then harsher action may be needed.
 

Arrangingstars

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I had a wonderfully long conversation with Shive one day in Mumble (not in GenChat), about some differing opinions about one single word. Where I am from, and in a lot of places in America, racism can hit really close to home for some of us. He had the opinion I was being overly empathetic over one word, and it was because where he comes from and how he was raised the word means something entirely different and isn't a slur at all. I'm only giving this example, because through our discussion I think we learned more about eachother in the most respectful way possible that two adults can agree to disagree. Now, I know this won't be the case for everyone, especially as our numbers in our VOIP grow, but I encourage everyone to privately message the person or a moderator if you feel uncomfortable with anything someone is saying.

Basically, we all need to have a thicker skin, but sometimes things can hit an emotional cord. If so, talk to the person who is making you uncomfortable like an adult, or ask a moderator to tell them to tone it down - if it is in GenChat.
 
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