Piracy Piracy Division/Squadron Organization Brainstorm

Stevetank

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besides most piracy in most games is sorta like a robbery in real life its in out you dont have time to set up a barbecue or put up party ballons if you do you might as well send invitations to the cops course you can be sure they will be attending in numbers :P. same shit here if you're too long about who you hit with a pirate ship you can be sure he has already called for help and the longer you stay the more help might arrive to help him out, be it military, enforces, local authorities or org mates..

thats why i say ships with tractor beams and fast loading mechanics
Yup. Large doors help load things fast, like the Crucible and the Caterpillar. The 315p and the Reliant Kore get tractor beams, I think, but only the Caterpillar and the Cutlass get them for free without sacrificing other hard points. This is probably what is going to make those 2 good at piracy.

The IDRIS is something that I would like to try. Large doors in front and back plus a large hangar to stuff full of cargo. Just think of how much SCU that has to be. Say if you used the area in the middle... 20m wide, 10m high, and about 100m long...that's 20,000 cubic meters or 16,000 SCU. That's a LOT of stolen goods that you can move in a protected shell. You don't get to use the hangar for the fighters if you fill it full of stuff, but that's getting close to a Hull D worth of goods in a protected environment. Sure it's expensive, but I'd rather keep all of the expensive weapons and missiles that need to be transported inside of an armored capital ship than a Hull D.

If the IDRIS is set up like a base in an asteroid field somewhere, then pirate squads can come and drop off their stolen loot in the IDRIS until it gets full. Then everyone leaves together and goes back to port with a lot of stuff. If you kept at least 1 bay open during this, then you can still rearm and refuel, though it would require more skill to fly the ship in or out backwards to avoid the towering pile of loot. The IDRIS would make a mobile command center for a multi group operation where several squads of pirates would go out, loot and plunder, then come back to drop off the goods in a secure place before venturing out again. They would not need to go all the way back home, they can just drop things off with Mom and go. Mother ships care for their children.

This would make it so that we could blast an area with lots of piracy attacks in a short time, which would reduce the effectiveness of anyone responding. Say we have 5 teams of 5 ships. 2 Cutlasses, 2 Sabres, and a Caterpillar just running around and looting. Those 5 groups of 5 ships just doing as many smash and grabs as they can, limiting themselves to 5 min for looting. They can hit a location, drop off loot, hit another, drop that off, and keep bouncing around. Even if they didn't take everything on the first pass, they can bounce back to the same ship they hit before and grab more stuff later. With 5 teams hitting so many locations at once, we can fill that IDRIS up in an hour and haul it all back home easily. I feel that doing things quickly is going to benefit us when it comes to not having to deal with respondents.
 
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BrutusTheBadGuy

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living off player tears i haven't heard that one but yeah i know the type wierd people but to each there own, reason i am into piracy is plainly just wanting to try that kinda life and live off of others i dont care if its NPC's or players and if i can do it with as little bloodshead as possible then great more profit to me since i wont need to pay repairs... a pirate that can convince a player to drop he's cargo without any conflict benefits more from it then a episode that ends up in a combat and conflict since that costs you time and resources...
 
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Stevetank

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living off player tears i haven't heard that one but yeah i know the type wierd people but to each there own, reason i am into piracy is plainly just wanting to try that kinda life and live off of others i dont care if its NPC's or players and if i can do it with as little bloodshead as possible then great more profit to me since i wont need to pay repairs... a pirate that can convince a player to drop he's cargo without any conflict benefits more from it then a episode that ends up in a combat and conflict since that costs you time and resources...
I think that it's going to be a little difficult to convince a player to drop cargo. Some of them on the forums seem to think that dropping cargo is a fate worse than death and they don't seem to want to reason with a pirate. Though they have good reason to because not every pirate is going to be as kind as you are and negotiate. Some might just attack, board, kill the crew, and then take it all. I would prefer simple negotiations. Contact the pilot, tell them to drop a little bit of cargo and you'll leave them alone. Just tell them to push it out the back and recover the lost goods through their insurance plan and you'll not bother them with your Caterpillar and small attack fleet. NPCs are much more easily convinced because they will be programmed to be. But people... some people are just stupid. No one refuses a TEST request :P
 
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BrutusTheBadGuy

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But people... some people are just stupid. No one refuses a TEST request :P
lol XD, true true, well when they see how much your losing from dieing they may reconsider, and why get your ship destroyed if all they want is some of your cargo and they leave you be :P. besides there's a difference between pirates and raiders :P. raiders go for everything and destroy what they cant get with them, pirates want something a profit and leaves the rest or even some of it and leave the rest
 

Stevetank

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lol XD, true true, well when they see how much your losing from dieing they may reconsider, and why get your ship destroyed if all they want is some of your cargo and they leave you be :P. besides there's a difference between pirates and raiders :P. raiders go for everything and destroy what they cant get with them, pirates want something a profit and leaves the rest or even some of it and leave the rest
We'll tell them, "If you drop us some cargo, then you get to decide what cargo we get, but if I have to come aboard, then I'm picking which cargo I get!"
 

Ryonin Shonin

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Probably what I would say "You have T-minus 120 seconds to power down, get into your escape pods and egress. We will pick you up and drop you at the nearest space port. If you do not comply I will be forced to make a living from the wreckage. If you comply you will be given the greatest gift of all life. I can not with good conscience let you continue to pilot your ship in this system. Thank you for your cooperation" I think it would be easier to transport the goods using the ship that brought it there and what else is insurance good for right?
 
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Stevetank

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Probably what I would say "You have T-minus 120 seconds to power down, get into your escape pods and egress. We will pick you up and drop you at the nearest space port. If you do not comply I will be forced to make a living from the wreckage. If you comply you will be given the greatest gift of all life. I can not with good conscience let you continue to pilot your ship in this system. Thank you for your cooperation" I think it would be easier to transport the goods using the ship that brought it there and what else is insurance good for right?
That's the kind of negotiations that leads to them not doing as you say. It makes them switch to fight mode and they resist. In that situation, you have to break their spirit first or have a well known reputation. It's not like you can really negotiate with an NPC without some sort of mini game and pre determined options but with people, you have to be much more charismatic to do that.

Here's an example. You're driving around and you see a parking spot. It's the only one in the lot and it's near where you want to go. Some other person pulls in before you get there and parks their car before you can react. The person gets out and locks their car as they start walking away. How are you going to convince them to get back in their car and move it from that spot? If you answer involves ramming their car, then you're not doing negotiations, you're just using violence. If you think that way, then you should just skip the negotiations altogether. Having a bit more charisma and some deep thinking, you can get them to do that with less violence.

Essentially in these negotiations, you are trying to convince them to do something that they don't want to do. You have to explain them the benefits of why handing the cargo over is better than resisting. Players can't feel pain and everything is insured, so there's no real reason for them not to fight you. You can do this, offer them something in return that will sort of help them out. Tell them that if they let you take some of their cargo, you'll write their name down on your list and for the rest of the week, they will have a free pass on your pirating. Tell them that during the week, you'll leave them alone because they have 'paid' their dues. This could of course be a lie, but what are the chances of you running into each other again? This way, your cargo hauler thinks that he's getting something in return. It gives him / her an incentive to do as you ask rather than you threatening them.

I mean, if you board their ship, then they can just run around their ship (also their home) and try to kill you with grenades or explosives. They don't have to stay, they just have to get creative in how they run around and do things. If they feel that you are too tough for them, then they can try and escape or do what not, but most people will still try and kill you before leaving.

If you are there to take the whole ship then why would you waste time negotiating. The answer is most likely going to be no anyways. :P
 

BrutusTheBadGuy

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Probably what I would say "You have T-minus 120 seconds to power down, get into your escape pods and egress. We will pick you up and drop you at the nearest space port. If you do not comply I will be forced to make a living from the wreckage. If you comply you will be given the greatest gift of all life. I can not with good conscience let you continue to pilot your ship in this system. Thank you for your cooperation" I think it would be easier to transport the goods using the ship that brought it there and what else is insurance good for right?
basicly what im seeing your telling people you have 120 seconds til i kill you , if you cooperate i may kill you dont you dont i will kill you, eather way you will most lightly die and i'll be taking all your shit eather way... anyone with abit of sence would just prepare and try there best to attack you with intent to kill you may even tell you to come aboard and then try to kill you

atleast if you do like Stevetank says there is a chance the'll listen to you

and most of the "pirate ships" cant even horde half half the shit larger cargo ships are carrying :P, and if people have a chance to get out of there with ship only % of there cargo missing they will most lightly cooperate :P
 

Ryonin Shonin

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I'm not sure I agree @Stevetank. I liked the use of analogies to explain your opinion but I see it differently. Something to remember is that the space we will be pirating will not be policed. The parking lot is 5 miles off the coast of Somalia, if the target knows what their doing they will be fighting you before you ever get to speak in the first place, it's not like your going to hide why you're following someone. As far as convincing them that part comes naturally, if you have advantage over the target, the choice will be easy. They know if they don't cooperate you will kill them and no one in system will be coming to there aid. If they don't comply you disable there ship with e-war, so you can hopefully fly it away. It's amazing how quickly people make decisions when there isn't a decision to be made... Two minutes is plenty of time for you to get additional assets in place in case the target does have help on the way(if you are prepared for it now you could be capturing several ships FTW). Either way both of our assumptions will depend on the value of a life vs the uninsured value of the cargo and ship fitting. Insurance may be sold for cargo and fittings as well, we don't know that either. Having a conversation giving them a way out, shows them there are other options and gets them thinking. You don't wan't them to think they have a choice. Better survival rate for all parties. My two cents :)
 
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Mettan

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Not saying people HAVE to be organised, just floating the concept of 'What if we did it like this, in order to maybe make lives a little easier down the road?' but by all means, Disorganisation for the masses - It's just organised crime tends to work sliiiightly better in the long run :P
I don't see the options here are a option between organization and disorganization. What is being discussed is how to organize. If we are planning on operating in low sec space with a very low UEE presence, fewer ports of call and fewer resources available to us, that alone is going to affect the way in which we need to organize. Also if our occupation is crime we will need to understand that we too will be targets for those whose occupation is anti-crime (bounty hunters). These factors alone would make it difficult to form a large sedentary group, or even a large mobile group.
A mob, or large organized criminal empire usually operates in the heart of civilization. They pull in money from both legitimate business and work around the rules illegitimately. If we want to be a mob I do not see the reason to leave Terra. Piracy, however, is an occupation that takes us to the fringes of space and out there it is simply easier to organize in small groups.
 
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Stevetank

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I'm not sure I agree @Stevetank. I liked the use of analogies to explain your opinion but I see it differently. Something to remember is that the space we will be pirating will not be policed. The parking lot is 5 miles off the coast of Somalia, if the target knows what their doing they will be fighting you before you ever get to speak in the first place, it's not like your going to hide why you're following someone. As far as convincing them that part comes naturally, if you have advantage over the target, the choice will be easy. They know if they don't cooperate you will kill them and no one in system will be coming to there aid. If they don't comply you disable there ship with e-war, so you can hopefully fly it away. It's amazing how quickly people make decisions when there isn't a decision to be made... Two minutes is plenty of time for you to get additional assets in place in case the target does have help on the way(if you are prepared for it now you could be capturing several ships FTW). Either way both of our assumptions will depend on the value of a life vs the uninsured value of the cargo and ship fitting. Insurance may be sold for cargo and fittings as well, we don't know that either. Having a conversation giving them a way out, shows them there are other options and gets them thinking. You don't wan't them to think they have a choice. Better survival rate for all parties. My two cents :slight_smile:
Ah, I see the disconnect. You're pirating in unprotected zones with no police / military. I'm not. To me, that's like stealing from your own neighborhood. I'm going to the rich UEE neighborhood across town. I'm not sure you should waste your time trying to convince people to bail since if they are going to enter that area, then they know the risks and they will take precautions to get through safely. They will most likely fight tooth and nail to the end. I'm not sure that wasting 2 minutes is really worth it for you since if they really want to live, they will be leaving as you board. As you said, cargo in this area is uninsured, which would give people more or a reason to fight for it.

I'll be in the area with all of the paladins and white knights that protect their innocent little lambs. I'm not looking for some wilderbeast out in the wild. I'm more of a fox sneaking on the farm for a nice hen. For me, I'll have the benefit of using their insurance against them. I'll remind them that they get their cargo refunded or what not if they hand some over without too much trouble. If they don't like it, then I'll take out their engines and ask again. If they still don't like it, then I'll cripple their ship until it's 90% destroyed. Depending on my team, I'll either try to force a boarding or even more evil, I'll let them go. Repairs are not covered under hull insurance. Hull insurance only replaces the ship if its destroyed. They will have to spend credits to get 90% of their ship repaired. After a few times they will start to realize that repairing 90% of their hull is not worth the 30 SCU that I want and eventually they might just give it to me on the first try.
 

BrutusTheBadGuy

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yeah plus lets say Hull-C - Cargo 4608 right ?, if your in 1 or 2 Cutlass Black's its - Cargo 33 each, so 66 cargo, thats like 1.4% cargo of he's cargo if he can pay that and not take any damage im sure he will and thats if the two pirates are greedy and negotiate the full amount of cargo they can carry, but even so if the trader can continue on he's path and not lose anything important i'd say its worth it to hear them out and hand over even if it was 10% cargo and that would be 460 cargo and even with that it would still be a pretty good deal and 14 cutlass's would be needed to transport that so i highly dought it would end up as that much and thats just a Hull-C...

all tho a Caterpillar can carry Cargo 512 so if they brought one of those they could demand abit more but still it would be a fairly good deal to just negotiate your way out of a conflict as a trader if you dont want your ship or cargo damaged
 
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maynard

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...After a few times they will start to realize that repairing 90% of their hull is not worth the 30 SCU that I want and eventually they might just give it to me on the first try.
or, more likely, they'll say, "Screw cargo hauling for a living, the rewards aren't worth the risks."
 
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FluffyVonRage

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I don't see the options here are a option between organization and disorganization. What is being discussed is how to organize. If we are planning on operating in low sec space with a very low UEE presence, fewer ports of call and fewer resources available to us, that alone is going to affect the way in which we need to organize. Also if our occupation is crime we will need to understand that we too will be targets for those whose occupation is anti-crime (bounty hunters). These factors alone would make it difficult to form a large sedentary group, or even a large mobile group.
A mob, or large organized criminal empire usually operates in the heart of civilization. They pull in money from both legitimate business and work around the rules illegitimately. If we want to be a mob I do not see the reason to leave Terra. Piracy, however, is an occupation that takes us to the fringes of space and out there it is simply easier to organize in small groups.
I'd have to agree - hence the concept of smaller, allied groups working together where needed, but also sufficiently distributed so as to not show up as a big'PIRATES BE HERE' signal to either Bounty hunters or traders, both of which are going to be bad for business. But, as ever, it's all down to how each player wants to play, and from that we're going to see groups condensing which is going to be good.
 

Plagueis

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I don't see the options here are a option between organization and disorganization. What is being discussed is how to organize. If we are planning on operating in low sec space with a very low UEE presence, fewer ports of call and fewer resources available to us, that alone is going to affect the way in which we need to organize. Also if our occupation is crime we will need to understand that we too will be targets for those whose occupation is anti-crime (bounty hunters). These factors alone would make it difficult to form a large sedentary group, or even a large mobile group.
A mob, or large organized criminal empire usually operates in the heart of civilization. They pull in money from both legitimate business and work around the rules illegitimately. If we want to be a mob I do not see the reason to leave Terra. Piracy, however, is an occupation that takes us to the fringes of space and out there it is simply easier to organize in small groups.
I personally want to live the high life as a successful businessman that does some illegal deals on the side. But being a full pirate and a mob org are 2 completely different things. Like exploring and being a miner.
 
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Ryonin Shonin

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I'd have to agree - hence the concept of smaller, allied groups working together where needed, but also sufficiently distributed so as to not show up as a big'PIRATES BE HERE' signal to either Bounty hunters or traders, both of which are going to be bad for business. But, as ever, it's all down to how each player wants to play, and from that we're going to see groups condensing which is going to be good.
This is very similar to how I ran in EVE seemed to be flexible and kept your groups from getting targeted. With larger targets you could tackle while you waited for another group to join from a nearby location.
 

Ryonin Shonin

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@Stevetank I believe there is some confusion either on my part or your's. I thought Piracy would be impossible in high security areas because the UEE would take you down if you tried committing crimes. If there were a dynamic that you had to be caught doing it that would be interesting. I'm with you the lambs are a lot easier and they have nicer wool.
 

BUTUZ

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I personally want to live the high life as a successful businessman that does some illegal deals on the side. But being a full pirate and a mob org are 2 completely different things. Like exploring and being a miner.
I'm just a businessman!!! Honest!!!!

 

Stevetank

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@Stevetank I believe there is some confusion either on my part or your's. I thought Piracy would be impossible in high security areas because the UEE would take you down if you tried committing crimes. If there were a dynamic that you had to be caught doing it that would be interesting. I'm with you the lambs are a lot easier and they have nicer wool.
Not impossible, just harder because of the security. There's also not just a on / off for security areas. It varies depending on the sector. 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%, and 0%. Places like Sol are 100% while other places like Banshee, Fora, and Nemo are easier pickings but still in the UEE. Especially Fora... it's like they have 1 sheriff and he's blind or something.

E-Warfare lets us scramble signals so that they can't pinpoint the location easily. Once we attack an NPC, they will trigger a distress signal. The goal is to get the cargo as fast as possible and then scram before the local police force shows up. I'm guessing that if the police force is destroyed, then they will call for the Navy. We don't want to be there when the Navy shows up. Too costly. We also just have to hope that some Navy ships aren't passing through and hear the signal. This is where a Sentinel or Herald will be important. If we find a player, then we can do negotiations. If we can convince them that we sort of patrol the area frequently, then maybe they will let loose some cargo for us nicely to avoid conflict. Still, speed is going to be important.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14926-Design-Notes-Electronic-Warfare

Here's a map with some crime rates. I'm not sure how accurate it is but it's all I have right now.


The higher the crime rate, the less protection that they have. We simply work our way up till we find a comfortable place to stop. The NPCs will respond to our attacks, so we'll have to keep rotating around. The more we pirate the area, the more they will create missions to help the NPCs not be pirated.

Imagine... fleeces as white as snow.
 
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