Video: Net Neutrality is gone, where do we go from here?

ColdDog

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Where'd you get this graph, anyways? I'd be interested in reading the accompanying comment/article.
LOL - that is my ART... it is a concept that I am trying to explain... from Tom's NN manual. You like it? Do the colors make sense? JK - Anyway that is my 5th grade attempt at drawing traffic shaping. You can go look at my links above... I think the ABC video tried to say the same thing. NN is a pain in the butt... its not a simple concept. NN - User A gets the same usage as User B.

The actual document

https://www.scribd.com/document/258492433/Full-net-neutrality-rules#fullscreen&from_embed -- Net Neutrality 2015

Pg 18

59. Below,we firstadopt three bright-line rules banning blocking, throttling, and paid prioritization, and make clear the no-unreasonable interference/disadvantagestandard by which theCommission will evaluate other practices, according to their facts.



https://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2017/db1122/DOC-347927A1.pdf -- Removal of Net Neutrality 2017

Pg. 58

101. The record confirms that concern about “regulatory creep”—whereby a regulator slowly increases its reach and the scope of its regulations—has exacerbated the regulatory uncertainty created by the Title II Order. Even at the time of adoption, the Commission itself did not seem to know how the Title II Order would be interpreted.369 As then-Chairman Wheeler stated in February 2015, “we don’t really know. No blocking, no throttling, no fast lanes. Those can be bright-line rules because we know about those issues. But we don’t know where things go next.”370 With future regulations open to such uncertainties, Title II regulation adds a risk premium on each investment decision, which reduces the expected profitability of potential investments and deters investment.371 For example, the Title II Order did not forbear from ex post enforcement actions related to subscriber charges, raising concerns that ex post price regulation was very much a possibility.372 Further, providers have asserted that although the Commission forbore from the full weight of Title II in the Title II Order, they were less willing to invest due to concerns that the Commission could reverse course in the future and impose a variety of costly regulations on the broadband industry—such as rate regulation and unbundling/open access requirements—placing any present investments in broadband infrastructure at risk.373 These concerns were compounded by the fact that while the Title II Order itself announced forbearance from ex ante price regulation, at the same time it imposed price regulation with its ban on paid prioritization

and so... there you have it both sides.
 

ColdDog

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I think the ultimate concern here is - ISPs will get away with what ever they darn well please because of the monopoly they hold across the United States. Ranging from price gouging to throttling or blocking content.
That is a valid concern. Regulation is not always bad but "I" also think it feeds itself from regulation, comes more regulation and so on. What we need is either 1. Additional competition or 2. New tech - then the cycle starts all over. Every 4 years these companies get a tech refresh and this is a "capital" expense... but every generation of new hardware and software brings exponential performance and benefits. The cost model is a human model... it's nature is derived from human behavior. So, yes, but we can also build new tech to change the direction. As usual, our politicians serve special interests that become a barrier for tech investment - by implementing regulation that protect their donors.

What we do not need... in my opinion is "stagnation". As a society we need to build freely, sell our ideas, and move on (as long as it is not a robot eating off my face)... then the cycle starts anew.

2017
118. The Open Internet and Title II Orders claimed to base their actions on a theory that broadband adoption is driven by a “virtuous cycle,” whereby edge provider development “increase end-user demand for [Internet access services], which [drive] network improvements, which in turn lead to further innovative network uses.”437 The Title II Order concluded that Commission action was necessary to protect this virtuous cycle because “gatekeeper” power on the part of ISPs might otherwise thwart it,438 as ISPs “are unlikely to fully account for the detrimental impact on edge providers’ ability and incentive to innovate and invest.”439 However, the economic analysis in the Open Internet Order and Title II Order was at best only loosely based on the existing economics literature, in some cases contradicted peer-reviewed economics literature, and included virtually no empirical evidence.

119. We find it essential to take a holistic view of the market(s) supplied by ISPs. ISPs, as well as edge providers, are important drivers of the virtuous cycle, and regulation must be evaluated accounting for its impacts on ISPs’ capacity to drive that cycle, as well as that of edge providers. The underlying economic model of the virtuous cycle is that of a two-sided market. In a two-sided market, intermediaries—ISPs in our case—act as platforms facilitating interactions between two different customer groups, or sides of the market—edge providers and end users. The Open Internet Order takes the position that edge provider innovation drives consumer adoption of Internet access and platform upgrades. The key characteristic of a two-sided market, however, is that participants on each side of the market value a platform service more as the number and/or quality of participants on the platform’s other side increases. (The benefits subscribers on one side of the market bring to the subscribers on the other, and vice versa, are called positive externalities.)440 Thus, rather than a single side driving the market, both sides generate network externalities, and the platform provider profits by inducing both sides of the market to use its platform. In maximizing profit, a platform provider sets prices and invests in network extension and innovation to maximize the gain subscribers (and potential subscribers) on both sides of the market obtain in interacting across the platform, subject to costs and competitive conditions. Any analysis of such a market must account for each side of the market and the platform provider.
 
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Bambooza

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You are right ColdDog that regulation feeds regulation as government's only purpose is to make itself important. I also know that companies that operate with out competition are no longer bound to the needs and desires of their consumers but now can operate to their own interests.

We are seeing corporations acting in their own special interests weekly if not daily as they go about deleting and blocking individuals who's views are contrary to the current political correctness. While I have no issue with Facebook and Twitter doing as they please with in their own platform due to the fact we as consumers have choices. And with this the government should not be involved as the market will flex to make room and allow for the differential of views to coexist.

Now comes the scary part what if Twitter and Facebook were the only social media sites you could go to, no longer were you free to seek out other sources and those individuals who's political views were contrary to the social platform were silenced. How would you even know it was happening? How about being only able to watch CNN news and go to CNN news web site due to the fact that Time Warner owns them and also happens to be your broadband provider. While Fox News owned by Fox Entertainment Group owns many television stations across the nation they do not own any stakes in cable companies and so no direct service providers. So yes you do have some options to gain access to differentiating points of view through over the Air TV and Radio I do not believe we can say they have the same impact that the internet has on the flow of information. It is this information that is at the heart of the net neutrality issue. While the debate goes off on tangents of access to Netflix or cat videos on Youtube, the true heart is the ability for anyone anywhere to access any information they find important beyond the political or current social opinion.

While stagnation of innovation is tossed around as being caused by Net Neutrality but correlation does imply causation. In fact I would put more weight on the lack of competition as a far more likely cause of stagnation then limited rules on how the network is utilized. Which brings up the last part. Due to the huge corporate conglomerates as well as real estate laws in regards to Utility Easements along with municipal, regional, state and federal laws and how they effect who is given rights to utilize these easements we end up with natural monopolies on who has access to the last mile. As much as we like to try and say its the cost of entry that bars others from creation the needed infrastructure to create competition the truth as Google (now Alphabet) ran into was their money couldn't buy the rights to put fiber cables in the conduits to provide alternate services to the communities they tried to roll out their service to. (I imagine in time they could but it would require lots of new laws which is a very slow process).

So the end result is we have large companies who due to both limited physical easements and laws have created monopolies. With out the weight of the free market and competition to drive them to be focused on the consumer they are able to act on their own behalf even if its contrary to the consumer needs and wants. And while there are some alternate means of entertainment the flew of information the internet provides is far to precious to allow any one individual or corporation to shape. Which lead to the easiest to enforce and fairest use of this resource that all packets are equal. While the internet providers can dictate how many packets you receive they cannot dictate what packets you receive.

TLDR; When it comes to most things I am pretty much of the mindset that the Government can and should fuck off. But when it comes to Net Neutrality there should be one simple law. All packets are created equal.
 
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Bruttle

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If this is your $0.02, then each word in this is worth $0.00003. :slight_smile:
Wow, you're absolutely right. I went to check the actual math and you had already done it. Two cents divided by 608 words does, in fact, make each word worth precisely $0.000032894736842105. Or, 0.0003... Well played sir. I thought you were just throwing a number out there.

Honestly though, I always intend to make a little post. It just always ends up bigger before I am done...
 
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ColdDog

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Now comes the scary part what if Twitter and Facebook were the only social media sites you could go to, no longer were you free to seek out other sources and those individuals who's political views were contrary to the social platform were silenced. How would you even know it was happening
I agree with you but Net Neutrality is about usage. If you want to address the monopolies we should start a new thread on Antitrust laws.

The document covers this specifically. While I was skimming trying to give people a balanced reply... I found the following. It's easy to find examples everywhere... in fact, a lot of this was happening during the Net Neutrality era.


I'm trying not to write a thesis here... I guess it is more of a public service.


By the way... I am just searching and skimming to document to help answer your questions.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/09/marsha-blackburn-twitter-ad-243607 (“Twitter is barring a top Republican Senate candidate from advertising her campaign launch video on the service because a line about her efforts to investigate Planned Parenthood was deemed “inflammatory.”);

92 See Comcast Comments at 14 (“When a consumer uploads new content to Facebook, for instance, it is not only Facebook that provides the information-processing functionality necessary for such activity; it is also the BIAS provider whose information-processing capabilities enable consumers to connect and interact with Facebook’s servers in the first place.”). pg. 13

Comcast Reply at 11 (“[T]he definition of ‘information service’ nowhere requires that ISP capabilities be solely responsible for any end-user functionality; it requires only that ISPs ‘offer’ an integrated ‘capability’ beyond mere transmission, which they unquestionably do.”); Cox Reply at 5-6; NCTA Reply at 6-7; Verizon Reply at 32, 34.

Thus, even where an ISP enables end-users to access the content or applications of a third party, the Commission nonetheless found that constituted the requisite information services “capability.”96 When the Title II Order attempted to evaluate customer perception based on their usage of broadband Internet access service, it failed to persuasively grapple with the relevant implications of prior Commission classification precedent. The Title II Order argued that broadband Internet access service primarily is used to access content, applications, and services from third parties unaffiliated with the ISP in support of the view that customers perceive it as a separate offering of telecommunications.97 The Title

111. The first instance of actual harm cited by the Title II Order involved Madison River Communications, a small DSL provider accused in 2005 of blocking ports used for VoIP applications, thereby foreclosing competition to its telephony business. Madison River entered into a consent decree with the Enforcement Bureau, paying $15,000 to the U.S. Treasury and agreeing that it “shall not block ports used for VoIP applications or otherwise prevent customers from using VoIP applications.”410 Vonage, an over-the-top VoIP provider, later confirmed in press reports that it had initiated a complaint against Madison River at the Commission and that other small ISPs had blocked its VoIP services.411

112. Next, the Title II Order referenced Comcast’s throttling of BitTorrent, a peer-to-peer networking protocol. Comcast, which was at the time the nation’s second-largest ISP, admitted that it interfered with about a tenth of BitTorrent TCP connections, and independent investigations suggested that Comcast interfered with over half of BitTorrent streams.412 After receiving a formal complaint about the practice, the Commission found “that Comcast’s conduct poses a substantial threat to both the open character and efficient operation of the Internet, and is not reasonable,” and ordered Comcast to cease the interference.413 However, the D.C. Circuit vacated the Commission’s order in Comcast. 414 113. Madison River and Comcast-BitTorrent—the anecdotes most frequently cited in favor of Title II regulation—demonstrate that any problematic conduct was quite rare.415 The more recent incidents discussed in the Title II Order also show that since 2008, few tangible threats to the openness of the Internet have arisen.416 First, in 2012, AT&T restricted customers on certain data plans from

114. The final example—though not an example of harm to consumers—discussed in the Title II Order was Comcast’s Xfinity TV application for the Xbox, which was criticized for exempting subscribers from their Comcast data caps. However, the service was provided as a specialized service, similar to certain VoIP and video offerings that use IP but are not delivered via the public Internet.420 Accordingly, the Xfinity Xbox application was not subject to the 2010 or 2015 rules, as it was a so-called “non-BIAS data service.”421 However, the Title II Order further clouded this carve-out for innovative services by threatening to enforce the rules adopted under the Order against ISPs if it deemed after the fact, that those services were “functional equivalents” of broadband Internet access services, as the Open Internet Order had done in 2010.422

116. Because of the paucity of concrete evidence of harms to the openness of the Internet, the Title II Order426 and its proponents have heavily relied on purely speculative threats.427 We do not believe hypothetical harms, unsupported by empirical data, economic theory, or even recent anecdotes, provide a basis for public-utility regulation of ISPs.428 Indeed, economic theory demonstrates that many of the practices prohibited by the Title II Order can sometimes harm consumers and sometimes benefit consumers; therefore, it is not accurate to presume that all hypothetical effects are harmful.429 Intrusive, investment-inhibiting Title II regulation requires a showing of actual harms, and after roughly fifteen years of searching, proponents of Title II have found “astonishing[ly]” few.430 Further, the transparency rule we adopt today will require ISPs to clearly disclose such practices and this, coupled with existing consumer protection and antitrust laws, will significantly reduce the likelihood that ISPs will engage in actions that would harm consumers or competition. To the extent that our approach relying on transparency requirements, consumer protection laws, and antitrust laws does not address all concerns, we find that any remaining unaddressed harms are small relative to the costs of implementing more heavyhanded regulation.

and so on...


I researched the document and did not find... anything close to "we're going to take away your first Amendment". Searching is easy, just do a Control f on the pdf.

if you agree with it great, if you don't agree with great. Either way, as I said, I am being the devil's advocate.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Say with NN it is a 50% split between Corporations and the Consumers.
I've used all my research skills (I googled it) and nowhere could I find that this is the case (even if it's 10% business 90% consumer.) Neutrality means ALL traffic is given an equal priority, meaning that hypothetically any excess should be filled up with random small packets that'll fit in the hole. I was not aware and cannot find any information on the bandwidth being sliced up due to use/user?

That doesn't sound very neutral...

Can you provide me some documentation to corroborate this please, I'd love to learn more on this. :slight_smile:
 
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Vavrik

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https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/collateral/service-provider/visual-networking-index-vni/complete-white-paper-c11-481360.html

Not sure what it corroborates, but your data is there. It's an interesting read anyway

Total Internet traffic (All protocols) for 2017 measured in Petabytes/Month. CAGR is sector growth rate.

Consumer 99,777 with CAGR of 24%
Business 21,917 with CAGR of 21%

Indicating that the split is more like 81% of all internet traffic destinations are consumer based.
In North America, the numbers are roughly 1/3 of these values, and the split is 85% Consumer, 15% Business.
 
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ColdDog

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Neutrality means ALL traffic is given an equal priority, meaning that hypothetically any excess should be filled up with random small packets that'll fit in the hole.
My example was over simplified for argument sake. When you add in the backbone L1 carriers L2 carriers L3 carriers is gets very complicated, both technically and legally. If I were you, I would start by looking at a specific carrier and then take it from there. For example, find a local provider and try to reverse engineer the usage it using public data, which could be extremely difficult.

As an example. Keep in mind there is NOT one single easy answer... they all use different backbones, different carriers, different contracts, different services. Even if you tried to look at it from a packet perspective it would be hard due to the NATing. You will need to focus on one entry/exit point to get an idea.

http://www.centurylink.com/business/help/network/overview-of-traffic-shaping.html

Hope this helps.

Edit - To address this as a security professional I use expensive software that taps into the network at an entry and exit to monitor packet traffic. As an example, a lite version of this would be wireshark. Most carriers have this type of infrastructure where they watch the data coming in and out, for operational and strategic perspectives. This is why you want to use HTTPS when ever you can. HTTP we can see everything, including your emails.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/collateral/service-provider/visual-networking-index-vni/complete-white-paper-c11-481360.html

Not sure what it corroborates, but your data is there. It's an interesting read anyway

Total Internet traffic (All protocols) for 2017 measured in Petabytes/Month. CAGR is sector growth rate.

Consumer 99,777 with CAGR of 24%
Business 21,917 with CAGR of 21%

Indicating that the split is more like 81% of all internet traffic destinations are consumer based.
In North America, the numbers are roughly 1/3 of these values, and the split is 85% Consumer, 15% Business.
Okay, many thanks, thats telling me where the traffic is coming from and the Compound Annual Growth Rate, but it doesn't say how the bandwidth is inefficient in not utilising all of the packet space it could potentially take due to Business having X amount and consumer having X amount.

My example was over simplified for argument sake. When you add in the backbone L1 carriers L2 carriers L3 carriers is gets very complicated, both technically and legally. If I were you, I would start by looking at a specific carrier and then take it from there. For example, find a local provider and try to reverse engineer the usage it using public data, which could be extremely difficult.

As an example. Keep in mind there is NOT one single easy answer... they all use different backbones, different carriers, different contracts, different services. Even if you tried to look at it from a packet perspective it would be hard due to the NATing. You will need to focus on one entry/exit point to get an idea.

http://www.centurylink.com/business/help/network/overview-of-traffic-shaping.html

Hope this helps.

Edit - To address this as a security professional I use expensive software that taps into the network at an entry and exit to monitor packet traffic. As an example, a lite version of this would be wireshark. Most carriers have this type of infrastructure where they watch the data coming in and out, for operational and strategic perspectives. This is why you want to use HTTPS when ever you can. HTTP we can see everything, including your emails.
Thanks for the link, traffic shaping makes sense if the data coming in is bigger than the pipe it has to fit down can manage. You'd have to buffer it or you are going to loose some of that data. Is this what you mean by underutilised bandwidth? Would that be because the size of the data could potentially be smaller or less frequent than the size of the pipe it needs to fit down can manage thus not needing to be buffered?

If so Traffic Shaping does not seem to be the same as Net Neutrality as Neutrality is treating all packets with the same precedence: Packet A, B and C could all be identical and they'd all have even share, whereas the repeal of Neutrality allows A to be favored, B to be buffered and C to be blocked entirely - Traffic Shaping example given in your link appears to be a basic part of not loosing data on a network made out of different components that don't all work at the same speed...?
 
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ColdDog

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If so Traffic Shaping does not seem to be the same as Net Neutrality as Neutrality is treating all packets with the same precedence: Packet A, B and C could all be identical and they'd all have even share, whereas the repeal of Neutrality allows A to be favored, B to be buffered and C to be blocked entirely - Traffic Shaping example given in your link appears to be a basic part of not loosing data on a network made out of different components that don't all work at the same speed...?
Traffic Shaping is NOT NN. It is part of how data is routed - it is a tool to distribute data. Service A could get more data than service B and service C could get more data then both A and B. Looking the packets is the lowest common denominator. Customers spend millions in technology like I mentioned above. We may have 52 servers purposed for this exercise... it is not cheap from a monitoring perspective.

f5 is a big player in this area... you may want to read their product manual to get more information.

https://f5.com/glossary/traffic-shaping

Keep in mind, when you think of data from your home... think of latency, the further you are from the data center the more latency you may receive - especially with coax. Also, your hardware may be a limiter. For example, my routers pretty much max out around ~700mbps... when I test from the modem I get ~1000mbps. So, there are lots of factors involved. Here is a screenshot from 11:30 am - peak time... and I am still getting around 400mbps.

upload_2017-12-19_11-45-8.png
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Traffic Shaping is NOT NN.
Aha, righto.

Many thanks for taking the time to discuss the repeal of Net Neutrality with me, I can see you are very experienced and as such it may have been rather frustrating to explain all this to me.

It's been interesting learning what traffic shaping is and that from your position in the industry NN hampered efforts to innovate in that area.

Thanks once again, I won't ask my question again, I think its time to sit back and wait and see what happens next. :)
 
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ColdDog

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Thanks once again, I won't ask my question again, I think its time to sit back and wait and see what happens next. :slight_smile:
Same here... I think we've beat this horse to death. We probably didn't change any minds (in either direction) but at least we discussed the issue and we both have a better understanding now.
 
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Vavrik

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Okay, many thanks, thats telling me where the traffic is coming from and the Compound Annual Growth Rate, but it doesn't say how the bandwidth is inefficient in not utilising all of the packet space it could potentially take due to Business having X amount and consumer having X amount.
Well quite honestly that's because we are not nearing saturation, and bandwidth is not inefficient. Instead, it is incredibly efficient. Where did the idea that bandwidth is inefficient come from?

Also. Traffic shaping *is* part of network operations management, and consequently is relevant in discussions of neutrality, in that traffic shaping is the activity that inspects and subsequently throttles or blocks packets. That's what it's called. Net neutrality doesn't define traffic shaping, nor does it prevent it. Net neutrality defines one aspect of network management policy, not the technology. For example, it is acceptable even under net neutrality to throttle a connection that is over cap (has used more bandwidth than allocated for a given period) or to prevent a DOS attack,etc.
 
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ColdDog

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For example, it is acceptable even under net neutrality to throttle a connection that is over cap (has used more bandwidth than allocated for a given period, or to prevent a DOS attack,etc.).
You are right on point Vavrik... shaping is a tool... yes, it is part of the NN discussion (very important part), but in the end it still remains a tool to meet an objective, but is not the total means to the end. It is but a piece of the huge equation, just like cost, budget, revenue, tiered service product offering, the last mile, and so on.

Everyone who participated in this discussion did an outstanding job and asking great questions, while making serious and valid points.
 
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Bambooza

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Your also being a little generic in putting consumer end points into the same fabric as Tier 1 / Tier 2. When routing across their own network as well as tapping into backbone providers do not typically have a single physical connection from one location to another. This is where net masks, metrics and routing tables come into play to give weight to specific paths to allow for dynamic load balancing. It is also were theoretically the first steps to traffic shaping will coming into play. In that they will not artificially slow down given packet types (way to costly) but instead route filtered packets across old slower networks or route across under utilized network routes even if its a far slower and/or longer path. As for buffering its typically not worth the attempt as its far more beneficial to drop the overloaded packets and let them be resent then to try and create stacks in the network hardware to handle buffering. Case in point AOL was famous for in network content being accessed quickly while the network at large was restricted to a few gateways that became easily overloaded. While this is not currently practiced as much it does show the precedence for favoring internal content and as ColdDog listed prior many cases have been brought up against these companies even with the FCC rules in place.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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It doesn't make sense that the Democrats wanted NN gone when it was the Obama administration that started it.
I think it makes less sense that as well as Fidget Spinners and Supa Soakers Pai's found the secret of Lazarus while shopping online.

"Hey, I'll resurrect you if you endorse this thing I've got going on..."

My assumption is any investigation will find it was third-parties otherwise unknown which would not be able to be proved to be working on behalf of the FCC or those opposed to the change effectively making it a moot point. Nothing lost, nothing gained... other than the trust of those related to the persons details used in the fraudulent postings - Thats the thing about trust, it takes years to build it and moments to crush it.
 
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ColdDog

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Apparently allot of dead people voted for the repeal of net neutrality.
I don't understand... there are 5 board members - they voted 3/2 to remove it. Looks to me like stolen identities. I'd suspect after these folks passed, no one ever removed their accounts... which is a common problem. But the vote was 5 people. Lesson, start taking your information security seriously. Time to accept your info is on the dark web... its just a matter of time until someone buys it and uses it.
 
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