My Experience with ADI, Atlas Defense Industries.

GrumpyCat

GrumpyCat

Space Marshal
Dec 17, 2014
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SofiyaPavlovena
Montoya said:
Ill tell you what I have told other org leaders, and that is we can try lead by example on this, but there is no way to stop it from happening.
Click to expand...
I believe that. I've always felt TEST to be a refuge from the craziness outside, and it is greatly appreciated to have a sane (loose verbiage here) org to be a part of. Thank you.
 
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O-Lefty

O-Lefty

Space Marshal
Officer
Donor
Sep 12, 2016
249
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O-Lefty
JayC said:
Why people do what they do, I'm not sure... TEST and ADI are completely different organizations, maybe that is the reason... Maybe what we consider false allegations of hacking by a member of TEST leadership might be another reason. Either way, ADI isn't for most gamers, and when people realize that fact, a small minority react badly, and want others to also react badly so they spread misleading or false information.

We go months without mentioning TEST or Montoya on the leadership side of ADI, but we do use an incident where ADI was falsely accused of hacking CIG servers, due to an ADI staffer getting drunk and talking about stuff he didn't understand at a bar citizen as a lesson in operational security. That there are people who want to tear what we're building down because it doesn't conform to their world view of how a gaming group should work... Those types of people for some reason try to make mountains out of mole hills, or flat out make stuff up to justify why they left, or were kicked out of ADI.

As for OmniPort, it never occurred to us that somebody would be stupid enough to think we were trying to rent ships for real world money since we never mention anything related to real world money. But, we've since added a clear disclaimer to the website, proving once again when you think it's idiot proof the Internet will find you a bigger idiot.

As for the OP, we kicked him out of ADI, we had our reasons, and the entire senior leadership team is in agreement that kicking him out of ADI was the right thing to do... For more than 4 years we didn't publicly or internally explain our reasons for kicking him out... until he publicly made false claims here and on Facebook. We've never dox'd him, or even publicly mentioned his online gaming handle or real name. While explaining this situation to our members we've just referred to him as John Doe.

Until Monday morning when we found out about the posts, nobody in ADI's leadership had contact with 'John' for more than 4 years. We all considered the manner settled. The last time I checked, gaming clans are free to kick people out for any reason aren't they? We didn't condemn Montoya for kicking RedSquadronLeader out of TEST :)

Now as for the collection of social media on members, we do NOT require social media links and, we do NOT require that people have to disclose their full name in order to join ADI. During the interview/onboarding process we have fields that can be filled out, but they are not required fields and most members don't provide social media links. We DO require some members of staff to provide more information, and in some cases face to face meetings... but with all the spying going on, and the crazy stuff you read about Eve, we feel these requirements are justified. For example, just this past weekend an apparent TEST member joined ADI, provided false information during the onboarding process and then proceeded to screencap our private forums and post those images publicly, ask that person if he was required to provide a full name and social media links. Maybe we're not paranoid enough?

Montoya, I can promise you, ADI hasn't engaged the services of a PI, or anybody else for that matter to look into your personal life, if somebody did that I would kick them out of ADI. Just like a lot of other large orgs we watch the public forums/websites of other organizations to see what they're talking about, but we don't collect any personal information, real names, addresses, etc on anybody in another organization. Which is why I finally made a JayC profile on this website and I'm responding to these false allegations.

I'm personally not a fan of Montoya, I feel that he and Citizen404 either knew at the time, or for sure know now that ADI didn't hack into any CIG servers, or use any other 'secret' method other than what anybody could do with a standard web browser and a spreadsheet... but so far have failed to publicly withdraw those accusations... they remain to this day as a forum post here at TEST. These rumors continue to spread even today, even though CIG cleared us of any wrong doing in writing 4+ years ago.

But, even though I have my disagreements with Montoya and TEST, I still work with him on a regular basis, answering questions, providing him information about issues that impact both ADI and TEST. I make sure that no ADI member posts anything about TEST publicly, because I don't want ADI members spreading rumors about TEST that may later turn out to be false.

TEST and ADI are on complete opposite ends of the organization spectrum, I personally think the community needs organizations from both ends of the spectrum... not everybody has the same play style, or expectations in an organization.

JayC
Atlas Defense Industries
Click to expand...
@JayC thank you for joining TEST! However, ADI does not allow affiliate organizations so you will want to leave them at your earliest convenience.

Happy to see you in discord too! Many people are confused by our multiple social platforms.

Cheers mate,
o7

P.S. will we be seeing you at CitizenCon in Manchester?
 
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Sethious

Sethious

Space Marshal
Staff member
Jan 1, 2014
601
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SethiousFel
JayC said:
Why people do what they do, I'm not sure... TEST and ADI are completely different organizations, maybe that is the reason... Maybe what we consider false allegations of hacking by a member of TEST leadership might be another reason. Either way, ADI isn't for most gamers, and when people realize that fact, a small minority react badly, and want others to also react badly so they spread misleading or false information.

We go months without mentioning TEST or Montoya on the leadership side of ADI, but we do use an incident where ADI was falsely accused of hacking CIG servers, due to an ADI staffer getting drunk and talking about stuff he didn't understand at a bar citizen as a lesson in operational security. That there are people who want to tear what we're building down because it doesn't conform to their world view of how a gaming group should work... Those types of people for some reason try to make mountains out of mole hills, or flat out make stuff up to justify why they left, or were kicked out of ADI.

As for OmniPort, it never occurred to us that somebody would be stupid enough to think we were trying to rent ships for real world money since we never mention anything related to real world money. But, we've since added a clear disclaimer to the website, proving once again when you think it's idiot proof the Internet will find you a bigger idiot.

As for the OP, we kicked him out of ADI, we had our reasons, and the entire senior leadership team is in agreement that kicking him out of ADI was the right thing to do... For more than 4 years we didn't publicly or internally explain our reasons for kicking him out... until he publicly made false claims here and on Facebook. We've never dox'd him, or even publicly mentioned his online gaming handle or real name. While explaining this situation to our members we've just referred to him as John Doe.

Until Monday morning when we found out about the posts, nobody in ADI's leadership had contact with 'John' for more than 4 years. We all considered the manner settled. The last time I checked, gaming clans are free to kick people out for any reason aren't they? We didn't condemn Montoya for kicking RedSquadronLeader out of TEST :)

Now as for the collection of social media on members, we do NOT require social media links and, we do NOT require that people have to disclose their full name in order to join ADI. During the interview/onboarding process we have fields that can be filled out, but they are not required fields and most members don't provide social media links. We DO require some members of staff to provide more information, and in some cases face to face meetings... but with all the spying going on, and the crazy stuff you read about Eve, we feel these requirements are justified. For example, just this past weekend an apparent TEST member joined ADI, provided false information during the onboarding process and then proceeded to screencap our private forums and post those images publicly, ask that person if he was required to provide a full name and social media links. Maybe we're not paranoid enough?

Montoya, I can promise you, ADI hasn't engaged the services of a PI, or anybody else for that matter to look into your personal life, if somebody did that I would kick them out of ADI. Just like a lot of other large orgs we watch the public forums/websites of other organizations to see what they're talking about, but we don't collect any personal information, real names, addresses, etc on anybody in another organization. Which is why I finally made a JayC profile on this website and I'm responding to these false allegations.

I'm personally not a fan of Montoya, I feel that he and Citizen404 either knew at the time, or for sure know now that ADI didn't hack into any CIG servers, or use any other 'secret' method other than what anybody could do with a standard web browser and a spreadsheet... but so far have failed to publicly withdraw those accusations... they remain to this day as a forum post here at TEST. These rumors continue to spread even today, even though CIG cleared us of any wrong doing in writing 4+ years ago.

But, even though I have my disagreements with Montoya and TEST, I still work with him on a regular basis, answering questions, providing him information about issues that impact both ADI and TEST. I make sure that no ADI member posts anything about TEST publicly, because I don't want ADI members spreading rumors about TEST that may later turn out to be false.

TEST and ADI are on complete opposite ends of the organization spectrum, I personally think the community needs organizations from both ends of the spectrum... not everybody has the same play style, or expectations in an organization.

JayC
Atlas Defense Industries
Click to expand...
Super pumped to see you on the forums! Hopefully all this spy business dies down. No game to spy on lol.
 
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SeungRyul

SeungRyul

Spreader of Truth / Master of Hamsters
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Oct 30, 2013
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Citizen404
Welcome @JayC , I am glad you took my suggestion all those years ago and joined our forums to discuss these allegations regarding ADI. Now, please forgive me as I jump straight into addressing your post. Please also excuse any grammatical mistakes, it's been awhile since I did this.

Let me be completely frank here and call BS on ADI’s attempts to pretend to be a victim in this matter. I don’t know what TEST represents to a linemember of ADI, but I do know that TEST must be #1 in some tripadvisor listing for holiday destinations for ex-ADI members. It’s frankly exhausting the number of ex-ADI members we talk to and persuade to drop their grievances against ADI and find a better way to enjoy themselves in the ‘verse. But as a result of all those monthly interactions with ex-ADI members, I can tell you that they all share one common, underlying thread: ADI threatens consequences in real life if their members fall out of line.

JayC said:
We DO require some members of staff to provide more information, and in some cases face to face meetings... but with all the spying going on, and the crazy stuff you read about Eve, we feel these requirements are justified.
Click to expand...
I honestly did a double-take and had to re-read this section where you attempt to “defend” that you are not actually doxing people. The OP of this thread could not have asked for better validation of his concerns regarding ADI overreaching into personal lives of the members. JayC you “claim” this former ADI staff is a sexual offender, you “claim” you never actually doxed him. But what in the flying f*** is it any business of a gaming community to look into the criminal offenses of their members?

If you really, really tasked a law enforcement officer to dig up dirt on a troublesome staff member by using social profiles you REQUIRED him to hand over. THAT IS DOXING. THAT IS A GROSS MISAPPROPRIATION OF GOVERNMENT RESOURCES. THAT IS UNACCEPATABLE.

*takes deep breath* I apologize for the outburst.

JayC you are in a unique position in the Star Citizen community. Your org is magnificent and I have no doubt that you guys will be a force to be reckoned with in the persistent universe. You are an org leader of thousands of members and that means that your members (and others in the wider SC community) look up to you to as a model of what is to be revered and what is to be deemed unacceptable in the Star Citizen community. Why would an esteemed org leader like yourself treat Star Citizen like EVE Online! You are in an excellent position to actually push against “the crazy stuff you read about EVE”. Instead you are instead aiming to bring the most toxic elements of EVE Online into the refreshing ‘verse of Star Citizen.

You say you know the metagame of EVE Online, but I used to be rank in a nullsec bloc and have friends that were (and still are) FCs of titan/supcap fleets. No self-respecting corporation/alliance/bloc required personally identifying information to become rank. Am I denying doxing never occurred in EVE Online? No. But you will be hard-pressed to see even one example of Goonswarm (the infamously metagame-heavy alliance) doxing any of their members.

The thread regarding ADI’s exploiting RSI database was in the past but you brought it up and I have very different memories of the entire incident.

  1. ADI coded a database tool that you login using your credentials and it accesses the Vanilla API that the RSI forums relied upon to extract handles (and other private profile information) to send org invites.
  2. Ex-ADI member (yeah even back in 2014 this was the case…) comes to TEST with a data dump of screenshots, the actual org invite program that you install on your computer, and other juicy info.
  3. I investigated those claims and shared my thoughts openly on RSI/Reddit without initially pointing any fingers.
  4. Some mysterious individual starts filing DMCA takedowns to image hosters to take down incriminating screenshots.
  5. CIG acknowledges the exploit and immediately patches it. I don’t recall any sort of exoneration in them patching an exploit.
Overall, I would have liked to stay out this latest ADI shitfest but your disingenuous reply posturing ADI as a poor victim really drove me the wrong way. There are two sides to every story and I find that that most times the truth is somewhere in the middle. But so much of what OP has stated shares commonality with the dozens of ex-ADI members I talked to over the years and some of the statements I know are to false/gross mis-characterizations.

If you feel ADI is truly a victim, it is a victim of circumstances of its own making and I will not shed any tears nor sleep over it.


Best,

Citizen404 (Seung)
 
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GrumpyCat

GrumpyCat

Space Marshal
Dec 17, 2014
394
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SofiyaPavlovena
JayC said:
Why people do what they do, I'm not sure... TEST and ADI are completely different organizations...

TEST and ADI are on complete opposite ends of the organization spectrum, I personally think the community needs organizations from both ends of the spectrum... not everybody has the same play style, or expectations in an organization.
Click to expand...

I dont get what he means when he keeps repeating that ADI is the opposite of TEST. Is he referring to the fact TEST doesn't rectally probe its members for information?

Oh god...

Do they not drink beer in ADI, is that it? They are a sober org?!

**EDIT**

In all seriousness though, those are pretty huge allegations.
 
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