Dammitall! :-D
Plus edited original comment as had part of a response I gave up on which made no sense. I am truly failing to Internet today!
Respawn mechanics change! Good or bad?
- Thread starter Montoya
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Plus edited original comment as had part of a response I gave up on which made no sense. I am truly failing to Internet today!
Not failing, succeeding on an unknown psy-op so advanced, that it is even working on yourself while you perform it.
Similar to telling a scary story to friends & family around a camp fire, accidentally scaring yourself in the process.
In the words of Rimmer (while looking in the mirror) "You can't scare me, I'm a coward! I'm always scared!"
There in itself is the thing though - if the Hardcore crowd (and indeed the Griefer crowd who share certain attitudes about their fellow players as their Hardcore brethren) had themselves some self restraint and didn't treat every other player that drew breath as a threat or a target (hence the similarities with Griefers and why PvPers often get the accusation of Griefing) we wouldn't be having this conversation because there wouldn't have been the need for concessions to make the game not suck utter monkey nuts when a segment of its users treats every other player around them as their own personal content pool.
I've talked a lot about PvP in the past and how SC isn't a PvP game like Fortnite or CoD because shooting at eachother isn't the only thing you can do in the game, and coined the term "Player On Player" where we have a situation where one player has no way to defend themselves against another, such as an Argo Raft being confronted by a Crusader Ares. We know how that'd end, it's not PvP when there is no "verses", it's cold unyielding domination... I believe this is what the testing concessions like the respawn update and Master Modes turning off weapons when you go over 20% of your ships maximum speed is about - finding ways to retain play for Hardcore while not allowing them to treat the rest of the playerbase using the game for something other than PvP as their content by making it still possible but harder to do, requiring specialist equipment like missiles which knock out those Nav cruise engines...
Old thread with my thoughts in it here:
Some thoughts on Player Verses Player when it lacks the "Verses"
Hello TESTies. TL;DR I'm not sure but I think I've observed a complication with multi-disciplinary PvP games which might be giving a misleading impression whenever anyone says "SC is a PvP game" it's more than that and I might have picked up on something which has always been there but I don't...
testsquadron.com
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This is where the "inner or safe space vs outer zones" thing along with crime stats and prison time should come in and dissuade those type of people. Not just the respawn mechanics.There in itself is the thing though - if the Hardcore crowd (and indeed the Griefer crowd who share certain attitudes about their fellow players as their Hardcore brethren) had themselves some self restraint and didn't treat every other player that drew breath as a threat or a target (hence the similarities with Griefers and why PvPers often get the accusation of Griefing) we wouldn't be having this conversation because there wouldn't have been the need for concessions to make the game not suck utter monkey nuts when a segment of its users treats every other player around them as their own personal content pool.
I've talked a lot about PvP in the past and how SC isn't a PvP game like Fortnite or CoD because shooting at eachother isn't the only thing you can do in the game, and coined the term "Player On Player" where we have a situation where one player has no way to defend themselves against another, such as an Argo Raft being confronted by a Crusader Ares. We know how that'd end, it's not PvP it's cold unyielding domination... I believe this is what the testing concessions like the respawn update and Master Modes turning off weapons when you go over 20% of your ships maximum speed is about - finding ways to retain play for Hardcore while not allowing them to treat the rest of the playerbase using the game for something other than PvP as their content.
Old thread with my thoughts in it here:
Some thoughts on Player Verses Player when it lacks the "Verses"
Hello TESTies. TL;DR I'm not sure but I think I've observed a complication with multi-disciplinary PvP games which might be giving a misleading impression whenever anyone says "SC is a PvP game" it's more than that and I might have picked up on something which has always been there but I don't...
There needs to be star systems where just the fact of that Ares locking a missile onto the Raft should instantly spawn in 6 heavy police fighters )with cheater level AI) to take care of the attacker in case he fires. On the other hand, there needs to be systems, like Stanton currently, where you will get policed, but there are ways around it. The risk should be high still but not "cheating AI punishes you instantly" levels of high. And ofc there needs to be systems like Pyro, where yes, every single player is a potential enemy and you do need to watch your back, or attack first.
I thought this was the original intent, we just haven't really seen the "protection" side implemented in any meaningful way yet. It's waaaaay too easy to get away with anything still, even though Stanton is supposed to be a relatively high-sec system.
This system should let everyone find the risk they are comfortable with. Also, that Raft you described should not be out there alone. It's an mmo for a reason, and CiG keeps bringing up the point of Hiring Escorts!!! at every single opportunity they have, to encourage this type of interaction and "emergent gameplay loop".
(emergent gameplay: I hate that wording so much, it translates to "we just can't be bothered to do it properly and think up missions and systems for you to play in, here's a barely functional party system, do it yourselfs")
And there is another thing. It's all in flux isn't it? If we get to a point in play where the systems and local security reaction times are swift enough, things like Master Modes may just be able to go away and the game can swing back toward Simulation flight mechanics... a loooot of balance still to go and many things may go by the wayside in the fullness of time...?
I don't think master modes is going anywhere. It works well for what CR wants, which is WW2 style air combat dogfights. I do want that too, I hated the duel of the thrusters type of combat, it required good ping, a high alphaDMG and not much else, but the current system feels way too clunky and forced. I wish we didn't have to switch modes just... I dunno, make the change-over more fluid. Maybe do it by making engines eat up waaay more of your power, so you would have to manage the power distribution, only allowing higher than SCM speed when you move most or all of your power over from weapons and shields. This power change could still be pre-assigned to a button without having to resort to all the bumpy clunky stutter that the current system does by switching "modes". It's as anti-immersive as it gets. I'm okay with the result, but I hate the way it's done.
Anyways, yes everything is still in flux and will remain so until close to release. So maybe in 5 years we will see some meaningful change to these systems...
Ya, i agree master modes is not going away anytime soon it's a poorly implemented compromise between dogfights and allowing players to travel quickly between locations. Some other suggestions I have seen that would have worked far more intuitive and that would have been to utilize the power triangle. Allow the rear thrusters to be engaged but it requires all of the power leaving none to resupply the weapons and shields. Thus they don't disappear but they do not recharge. This even goes so far as to allow for a time delay in spooling of the engines that can vary by engine type. It even plays into the whole hover mode with those ships that have VTOL able to hover while others do not have enough thrust unless they divert more power (gravity factoring into it). In fact it allows those ships with wings to benefit from forward flight lift without using all of their power and means large capital ships would need to divert all their power to fly inside a planet's atmosphere with out making a crater.
No, it's not the fast-paced PVP like CoD and Battlefield as much as arena commander tries to make it. It's far more akin to the slower-paced survival pvp like rust, Tarkov, and even eve-online. My statement about the hardcore is that there has been this turmoil between the two groups when in fact they really need each other. I have seen so many games diminish their upper reach content to cater to the casual as it was too difficult to obtain quickly only to alienate their hardcore group which leads to a slow but predictable attrition as the hardcore members no longer have something to strive for, ego pump about and the casual players end up only seeing a ghost town that no longer fulfills their social needs. By the same token, it can easily go the other way with content being time-consuming and difficult which leads to an active hardcore group but all too often not enough to justify continued maintenance costs. (eve-online being a notable exception)
I know we have had this discussion before @NaffNaffBobFace, but I still agree with @Lorddarthvik in that pvp needs to be only limited by the game mechanics with a gradient scale that really only has a few core worlds heavily secured but the vast majority being on the verge of lawless or entirely lawless. That it is the need to play together that builds the social framework, it's the emergent content through pitting the players against each other that keeps things engaging as creating content is hard and far too costly. It's the same for any media, it takes movies years to create and you consume it in an hour or two and are done with it. It takes authors years to write a book you can read in a weekend. Games have the same costs with development time taking years to create a single-player game and if we are lucky we can squeeze out 40 hours of play time. It's why people can put in hundreds of hours of game time into CoD, while only 40 hours into Cyberpunk.
So no the raft is vulnerable, the Orion is vulnerable but both have a role to play and both require teamwork to accomplish their goals. It is that tension that risks that keeps things exciting and challenging. And there are fragments of a successful interplay already in the game. Look at the satcom's and how it takes effort to bring one down but in doing so it not only lets players know it's down but it also lets pirates operate without security force intervention. This allows that raft player to notice something is amiss and they should be on guard.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I like it but we’ll need to wait some to see that it doesn’t result in players rushing headlong into gunfire, secure in the notion their clone is a minute away.
It’s certainly going to be a boon for the ground vehicle enthusiasts, which we need. It also plants the Nursa in the center of things.
I also wonder if it won’t give the Lancer a boost. Now in addition to 4 beds to log through, you have a couple Nursas you can place strategically around the battlefield. Jumptown is the place to test this, I think. How do you hide a Nursa so the bombers don’t see it? Anyone know just how many Ursas fit in the Lancer Max?
Stealthy Max flies in unobserved and seeds the hills with spawn points. Hiding spawn points could become an art form. And suppose if when the Max drops a Nursa, and boxes of gear to suit up with, it also dropped a handful of Pulses, to get your troops back into the fight faster. We might finally see grav bike riders taking that platform more seriously. I never see people fighting from grav bikes. And dropping Furys next to an Ursa. Lots of new options here.
I also like giving the Liberator the ability to spawn. That has some serious ramifications for fighter pilots reentering space combat after going boom.
It’s certainly going to be a boon for the ground vehicle enthusiasts, which we need. It also plants the Nursa in the center of things.
I also wonder if it won’t give the Lancer a boost. Now in addition to 4 beds to log through, you have a couple Nursas you can place strategically around the battlefield. Jumptown is the place to test this, I think. How do you hide a Nursa so the bombers don’t see it? Anyone know just how many Ursas fit in the Lancer Max?
Stealthy Max flies in unobserved and seeds the hills with spawn points. Hiding spawn points could become an art form. And suppose if when the Max drops a Nursa, and boxes of gear to suit up with, it also dropped a handful of Pulses, to get your troops back into the fight faster. We might finally see grav bike riders taking that platform more seriously. I never see people fighting from grav bikes. And dropping Furys next to an Ursa. Lots of new options here.
I also like giving the Liberator the ability to spawn. That has some serious ramifications for fighter pilots reentering space combat after going boom.
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That idea, which is a more refined version of what I wrote, should be the way to go with this whole traverse vs combat mode thing. Such a system would also take advantage of promised but yet haven't even seen gameplay loops like modifying existing parts (powerplant, engines) and it would add a reason swap to better enginen and thrusters, if we ever get swappable thrusters/engines, which at this point I very much doubt.
Also, I'd like to see the return of the hover mode landings, just with a little bit less twitchy and more refined controllable system. Currently hovering still feels disconnected from reality, feels like I'm flying a fridge equipped with antigrav, no matter in which ship or planet I'm on.
My problem with the safe-area vs wild lands is that if past experience is anything to go by, you won't really have anything viable to do in the safe zones. EVE demonstrated this issue very well, you either moved out and joined up with a big org and basically became a slave to them, or you became a slave to yourself and spent an insane amount of time scraping away around the edges of safe space for basically nothing in return.
I do understand that the higher risk has to be rewarded, question is by how much. One side effect of this eased respawn system could be that with the lower risk there comes a lower gap in rewards. TBH as someone who has a real life, and little time to play, mostly at random hours, I doubt I'll be playing in parties much, I'll be mostly looking for more safe than risky solo activites. But I'd still like to get ahead sometime sooner rather than never.
I've been wondering for a very long time now why they are not using the coolers for this? It's notoriously hard to get rid of heat in space, vacuum flasks keep food hot for hours because the heat energy can't breach that nothing-gap, so it would just make logical sense to me that if you fly over what your coolers can handle you'll overstretch that capacity and have systems like weapon, mav thrusters and shields loose efficiency as they fail to get rid of their heat and have to slow down/stop to avoid damage. Fighter Pilots who choose to turn off the restrictors would be able to fight harder longer but then pay for that with higher repair costs and indeed systems breaking in battle like loosing a thruster or having a gun not just slow down, but permanently stop...
It's almost like the coolers have just been forgotten about or they may even be removed as a mechanic, I'm sure in earlier patches I used to have to monitor the gun heat really quite closely to make sure I didn't loose them just when I needed them...? It could also be upgrade play too with players choosing the mix of cooler efficiency/power use/EM generating parts, the "Quiet and dumb or loud and stupid" or any mix in between.
I think a lot of what where my personal interest in this subject comes from is the in-development nature of SC, comparing where it was to where it is now, and my general inexperience which what could be termed "PvP" games, not being drawn to that mechanic much in the first place. Do I play Fortnite or CoD? Nope, I'll be the first to admit I'm pretty damned crap at those kinds of games. The survival PvP game style is indeed more sophisticated as it lends more drive and direction to the PvP in the requirement to get resources to gain strength to use against and defend yourself from others, compete for resources, raid others bases for their resources... but the gamescape is again consensual in that anyone walking into ARK Survival Evolved or others like it is more than aware what they are walking into and importantly: other than enhancing their PvP what else can players of these games do with their resources if they are not using them to enhance their own personal ability to PvP? Can someone who has spent their time punching trees then go and buy thousands of Pico Penguins or an X1 Velocity Racing Bike with the rewards of selling their lumber to an environmental resource sync like a factory or town?
I don't disagree PvP is an integral part of SC and it won't be going away or anything, I'm not suggesting or expecting that a Raft is not going to be vulnerable when shot at by an Ares or any other type of weapon-craft (Starfarer could take one down thinking about it, and it's not seen as a classical PvP ship), and yes its in an Alpha state where a lone Arrow can take down a large ship like a Caterpillar or Starfarer whereas the classic example was that a Connie should be able to see off a wing of 3 hornets... an arrow pilot may as well expect to collapse an office block by slapping at it as expect to be able to take out a large ship on their own... things really are not where they are intended to be so I can accept what I'm experiencing, seeing and in some cases suffering, are an outsiders perspective of an unfinished work in progress... So I can concede some points as wait-and-see I can't really be second-guessing them.
This Respawn change most definitely is a bonus for not having to waste your play session away and I will say that's the driver for this (perhaps temporary) change, going all the way back to home base to go back out to the action only to have to repeat that over again. It also brings in support classes for engagements which have to this point not really been viable so yeah, Player-On-Player is a minimal part of that and I think my enthusiasm got the better of me in this thread :-D
I will question however that Master Modes is purely to give players a fast travel option though: in this first pass on the mechanic, top speeds are actually down on where they were previously when weapons were hot across the range - restricting aggression with weapons and defence with shields is partly to give that dog-fighter intentional or not, a side-effect is it gives an option for those not wanting or consenting to PvP the option to simply walk away from it. As far as Hardcore goes right now there is no reason at all not to travel everywhere in Nav and not drop out of it when confronted.
At that point and engagement has to be intentional engagement on the part of the aggressor in using ways of slowing down a target with specialist systems such as QED dampening. It's no longer a casual "there is a player, they are mine to enjoy", it's "there is a player, how do I catch them?" which then opens up more questions for them including "is it worth my time chasing them down?"
I feel in terms of gameplay Master Modes are a bit janky - i mean 2 speed bands is pretty weird isn't it - but serves two purposes, improvements in the physical PvP enjoyment factor of the dogfight but also for offering all players a dominance over the previously all dominant PvP combat mechanic, they can now just turn round and walk away, unless those other players have a way of stopping them... but that in itself then needs more commitment to the encounter by the PvPer, an intentional commitment requireing a few hoops to jump though rather than a casual bang and done mentality. Although it's weird, the speed bands and their restrictions could really help balance the PvP/PvE crowds in allowing both to be able to play their game their way with a little shared inconveniance for both...
But this thread is about Respawn, not Master Modes! I should be taking this to The Outside!
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
This is actually a prime concern for me to the point that when I examine ships’ stealth signatures, I always equip them with Industrial A coolers, so I have as uniform a baseline as possible.
Right now you can overheat your ship and the systems will shut down. So it matters. In my case, because I am almost always looking at stealth and the stealth coolers drop your IR signature so little, I instead use Industrial A because they dump heat the fastest. Dumping faster rather than farther means you can regain stealth status faster than otherwise, so it’s a good trade. I recommend Industrial A to anyone toying with the stealth mechanic.
ThunderKraken
Space Marshal
The old regen system was great!!! Why did they do that!?!?
I loved waking up in a hospital bed, reorienting myself trying to find my clothes, and then riding a train for 5 minutes towards a ship hangar. Getting into my ship and quantuming for 20 minutes to my location. Finally exiting my ship, glitching on the step ladder, and leading me to die to do it all over again. FIDELITY!! C.ROBERTZ DEATH OF SPACEMAN!!! EAT IT NERDS.
I loved waking up in a hospital bed, reorienting myself trying to find my clothes, and then riding a train for 5 minutes towards a ship hangar. Getting into my ship and quantuming for 20 minutes to my location. Finally exiting my ship, glitching on the step ladder, and leading me to die to do it all over again. FIDELITY!! C.ROBERTZ DEATH OF SPACEMAN!!! EAT IT NERDS.
Do you think that a Zeus Mk II MR would make a good stealth centric ship? Sneaking up on a bounty and dampening their quantum engines, disabling, and boarding their ship sounds like a hoot!
Richard Bong
Space Marshal
13 years in and they are still changing basic gameplay mechanics. Not iterating and improving, but changing the tier 0 plans.
To me is is neither good nor bad, just disappointing.
To me is is neither good nor bad, just disappointing.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
IMHO, what can or will make a good stealth ship concerns the EM and IR readings when running however you choose as normal. On the 400i, I would choose to run with shields, guns, retro thrusters and one large reactor all turned off, and the max sig was just below 6k. That is changed with this patch. It’s now 14k. That ship is no longer what I consider to be stealth, and indeed this is very upsetting to me. I no longer see a reason to fly it.
We have no stats on the Zeus MkII, except we know it does not include the third cooler slot that made the 400i stealthy. It takes both reactor shielding and enhanced cooling to make a stealth ship. So my guess is at this time, it does not appear CIG wants any ships of that size to be stealthy, with the possible exception of the Sentinel.
S3 components do not come in stealth variants. So for bigger ships, you want multiple S2 reactors, triple coolers, plan to shut down the shields. The 400i held an unique position here as the only stealth ship of that size, and I feel like someone needs slap therapy and something hard, sharp and foreign inserted in their rectum.
Just pisses me off when people fuck up stuff they do not understand.
Maybe I just don’t understand what the plan for stealth is. The Ghost, which used to clock in below 3k sig, now measures 6.5. Why fuck up the signature on the Anvil sneak thief? Something is going on. Either CIG has a plan to move ships further apart (opposite of what they’ve been doing for ages), or people are arbitrarily fucking up the stats on ships because they don’t understand the plan. My money is on the latter, which means it may get fixed.
The Eclipse sig used to be <3. It’s now >4. Why?
It’s too early to whine much and CIG doesn’t listen to that kind of feedback. So just wait and see. I will note, CIG has a long history of deliberately breaking shit they intend to fix later, so maybe this is some of that.
But back to the MR: with 2S2 reactors and coolers, if you shut down all unnecessary systems it can likely be made as sneaky as a Vanguard and perhaps even a Sentinel. Drifting skillfully, you might get within 6-8 km of a target before they spot you. That gives them mere seconds to respond before you bring 4S3 and 2S4 guns to bear. If they’re distortion, and you launch the spike missiles we’ve been promised, yeah. I’m sure you can bag prey that way. That extra turret in the MR is something to be feared. It’s about the same distortion firepower as the Cutty Black, which is designed for boarding. So my guess is you’re good, so long as your band of cutthroats are up to the task.
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Richard Bong
Space Marshal
No. The only ship in that size range that is designed to be Stealthy is the Prowler.
Can you make it stealthier? Sure, you can with the right choices but that doesn't make it a stealth or stealth centric ship. For a stealth or stealth centric ship, you need a ship designed, from the ground, up as stealth.
Most MMOs change tskmething in their gameplay mechanics every 3-5 years. It’s the nature of the game.
The problem is that CIG seems to stuck on how to implement many of these features. Exploration? Science? Repair? We just got T0 salvage, Mining and hauling have major problems. Inventory still needs work, heck, even the game isn’t solid.
The problem is they had to develop things out in the open. That meant time spent on tons of ships to fit everything instead of 1 or 2 testing platforms. if Imhad built the game traditionally, I would have made 3-4 “hero ships” that could do anything. combat, mining, salvage, science, exploration, hauling, etc. one would be small, one medium, one large, and one capital. From this, all ship stuff would be developed. Until I was happy with the mechanics, metrics, etc. from there, I would have made the ships ina single batch, no need to constantly remake the ships over and over.
Don't forget about the ultimate "stealth" ship, the Origin 404i, the ship so "stealthy" that even the devs have a hard time locating it when they spawn it. LoL