1 cap vs 10 sub-cap

FZD

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IIRC, the caps ships are the only ships in the game that do not include a blind spot so far as fire return is concerned. Even the Polaris tips its hat at the blind spot mechanism, in that there is at least one if not two (looks like two) unmanned turrets aft. These are less effective than manned turrets. IIRC, all the other cap ships have no blind spots and use all manned turrets.
Well, just because something has a ton of turrets all around the ship, doesn't mean it doesn't have blindspots. Polaris has few, I'll add a picture where they are. I'm sure the other capital ships have some as well, but as I can't load the holo schematics for Idris or Javelin, I can't say for sure for those two.

Larger blind spots, easier to reach and maintain
PolarisBlindSpot.png


Smaller blind spots, more difficult to reach and maintain
PolarisSmallBlinsSpots.png
 

Shadow Reaper

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Well, just because something has a ton of turrets all around the ship, doesn't mean it doesn't have blindspots. Polaris has few, I'll add a picture where they are.
I think you misunderstand the real utility of a true blind spot. A small patch of space attached to a ship where it cannot see is not a useful blind spot. For ot to be useful you need to be able to approach the ship through that space. If you have to approach the ship through visible area first, it really does not matter much that there is 20 meters attached to the ship where it can't fire, especially if it has missiles that can lock and fire into that space. Likewise, that tiny space you note around the rear of the Polaris is easy to fire into, simply by turning the Polaris. It really would be impossible for a ship to stay in that area with active piloting on the part of the Polaris.

Look by way of contrast at the Redeemer. It was designed with a large rear facing area where the weapons cannot fire, that extends off to infinity, so if you can approach that ship from behind you can void all its fire arc. If you approach in stealth, the Redeemer might never know what hit it until it was doomed. Thing is, as with any ships blind spot, good piloting discipline will turn a target regularly, which will put ships in a blind spot out into the open. This is why motorcyclists are trained to move forward and backward in their lane on the highway, so that they do not inadvertently slip into the blind spot of a car in another lane and then have the cars switch lanes and drive into them.
 

Printimus

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Yeah but we are talking about a LARGE capital ship with limited moveability due to its size, once you get up close (not hard because of the speed required to do so) all you gotta do is sit in the blind spot and pew pew until you chew through its shield and armor.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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If you look at the blind spot Sanzennin ploted out for us, you'll see it is much too small to be used in the way one imagines. Any small maneuvering by the Polaris and the attacking ship will be in targetable position. The key is in whether the lines of sight converge or diverge. If they converge or close on each other as they grow more distant from the ship they will eventually merge like the sight of an Elk, who's peripheral vision meets about 20' behind its head. Despite that it cannot see immediately behind it, you are not going to sneak up on a bull elk because he can see 360* a once.

When the lines of sight diverge or move apart as they grow more distant from the ship, you have a true usable blind spot. (Note its not really "blind", and the target will still have you on scan.) The Redeemer cannot shoot behind it, so if you can get into that spot for a short period of time you can use it. Trouble is again, that as soon as the Redeemer turns in any direction you're likely to be in targetable position.

The convergent blind spot adjacent to a ship is however useful for one thing--boarding. Once the computer is down on a ship and it cannot maneuver, its manned turrets may still be able to fire. If that's the case, slipping into a convergent blind spot will be useful to provide the time necessary to board.

If what you want is to be able to fire on a target safe from return fire, you need to use longer range weapons or wait for the targets computer and maneuvering to go down.
 

Printimus

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If you look at the blind spot Sanzennin ploted out for us, you'll see it is much too small to be used in the way one imagines. Any small maneuvering by the Polaris and the attacking ship will be in targetable position. The key is in whether the lines of sight converge or diverge. If they converge or close on each other as they grow more distant from the ship they will eventually merge like the sight of an Elk, who's peripheral vision meets about 20' behind its head. Despite that it cannot see immediately behind it, you are not going to sneak up on a bull elk because he can see 360* a once.

When the lines of sight diverge or move apart as they grow more distant from the ship, you have a true usable blind spot. (Note its not really "blind", and the target will still have you on scan.) The Redeemer cannot shoot behind it, so if you can get into that spot for a short period of time you can use it. Trouble is again, that as soon as the Redeemer turns in any direction you're likely to be in targetable position.

The convergent blind spot adjacent to a ship is however useful for one thing--boarding. Once the computer is down on a ship and it cannot maneuver, its manned turrets may still be able to fire. If that's the case, slipping into a convergent blind spot will be useful to provide the time necessary to board.

If what you want is to be able to fire on a target safe from return fire, you need to use longer range weapons or wait for the targets computer and maneuvering to go down.
The polaris was classifed as being "fast" comparable to other capital ships.....it is NOT going to be fast comparable to smaller ships like hornets and other fighters....so hanging out in a blind spot will be a cinch.
 

Thalstan

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I would look on it more as a function of people involved (crew capacity) vs just ships. It would also matter which ships (as has already been mentioned). Ten Polarises would probably kill the Idris and maybe a Javelin. (no, I don't consider the Polaris to be a cap ship, and neither does CIG at the moment.) A few Retaliators, a few Vanguards, and 1-2 fighter escorts could take down a Polaris, MAYBE an Idris. That said, how are you going to trap the Idris/Javelin/etc? They can just go to quantum if they feel they are outclassed unless they HAVE to guard something else. Yes, there has been an "interdictor" mentioned by CIG, but nothing out there just yet. We also don't know how easily an EMP will take out the other components of the ship. Finally, if you blow an EMP with your support fleet, either they are shutting down just before you blow it (making them easy targets), you take them out with you, or you have a very solo approach to range where the cap ship can concentrate all of it's fire on YOU.

Theory crafting is fun, but we all need to take it with a ton of salt. Until the game is released and then have release balancing done on it, we just don't know what might happen or how things will stack up. So long as we understand that, it's cool. Otherwise, this is just like two 8 year olds saying "my dad can beat up your dad"
 
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Printimus

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I would look on it more as a function of people involved (crew capacity) vs just ships. It would also matter which ships (as has already been mentioned). Ten Polarises would probably kill the Idris and maybe a Javelin. (no, I don't consider the Polaris to be a cap ship, and neither does CIG at the moment.) A few Retaliators, a few Vanguards, and 1-2 fighter escorts could take down a Polaris, MAYBE an Idris. That said, how are you going to trap the Idris/Javelin/etc? They can just go to quantum if they feel they are outclassed unless they HAVE to guard something else. Yes, there has been an "interdictor" mentioned by CIG, but nothing out there just yet. We also don't know how easily an EMP will take out the other components of the ship. Finally, if you blow an EMP with your support fleet, either they are shutting down just before you blow it (making them easy targets), you take them out with you, or you have a very solo approach to range where the cap ship can concentrate all of it's fire on YOU.

Theory crafting is fun, but we all need to take it with a ton of salt. Until the game is released and then have release balancing done on it, we just don't know what might happen or how things will stack up. So long as we understand that, it's cool. Otherwise, this is just like two 8 year olds saying "my dad can beat up your dad"
But my dad CAN beat up your dad....
 

Han Burgundy

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With the right person behind the stick, who has a sufficiently clever plan, anything is possible in an Argo. I have no idea how the balance of Cap-->SubCap combat will end up turning out....but it will be fun to test all these theories. (soon.)
 
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Printimus

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With the right person behind the stick, who has a sufficiently clever plan, anything is possible in an Argo. I have no idea how the balance of Cap-->SubCap combat will end up turning out....but it will be fun to test all these theories. (soon.)
Sold, you can be 1 of my 10 ship squadron to test this theory while you fly your Argo.
 

Han Burgundy

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Okay, okay...twist my arm? (Can't resist a good theorycrafting)

1 Sentinel
3 Retaliatiors
4 Hornet Trackers
2 Prowlers

The Prowlers and their onboard boarding partys advance first and position themselves near the Capital ship (undetected). Flight of hornet trackers begins their approach, aiming to avoid contact until the first blows are thrown. The heavy punch comes in the form of the Retaliatiors heading in under the electronic cloaking of their accompanying Sentinel. The goal is for the
Retaliatiors to close in within firing range and remain undetected for long enough to send 3 Volleys each before peeling off. (ideally, the Retaliatiors themselves will never be detected by the Cap)

Instead of using electronic warfare to take down the shields for the boarding team to slip past, I would rely on the good ole fashion power of brute force to break through a small section of the shields
(Assuming that is how they will work). All torpedoes will strike a predetermined region of the enemy Capital ship in three timed volleys that will hopefully allow at least the last flight of munitions to hit naked hull and tear into the Cap's subdecks. (This is where having high cost stealth-tech torpedoes would come in handy, but they aren't absolutely necessary for success)

Then the prowlers and the wing of hornets come into play. If the torpedoes hit, breaching the shields AND hull, the boarding team will head in through the hole that was punched. While they are doing that, the hornet trackers will come out of hiding to play a distracting role, harassing the crew and giving them something to worry about. From that point, it's really up to your boarding team to kick ass and capture/kill it from the inside. Opportunities from there would be in the form of atmosphere, sabotage of power distribution, or balls-out door kicking adventure to the bridge. Pick your poison.
 
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Sportsvee

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Fed-ex a box containing a bee hive into the cap ship.
Once opened and crew distracted crash 9 Aurora's into cap ship.
Last sub cap ship wanders in and tows prize home.
Easy.
 
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Bigcracker

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Capital ships are about as good as their escorts and their commander. Many times in real world situations so called "lesser" forces have won battles or held off long enough for reinforcements (Just for reference look up the battle off Samar).

For theory crafting purposes you have to ask yourself what is your target?Do they have fighters?How close are their reinforcements? Do I want a immobilization or a kill?

If It was a Frigate or Destroyer at most 4 fighters?
x2 Sabre
x1 Freelancer MIS
x1 Warlock
x2 Gladiators
X4 Talis

Sabre escorts the gladiators in for a run against the ships engines, Warlock EMP's fighters so the MIS has easy pickings on destroying the enemy fighters with missiles. Talis should have a very slow target to shoot at and if any enemy fighters survive can be picked up by the fast Sabre's. If all goes well the MIS,sabres and Gladiators can strafe or barrage to draw fire from the Talis.
 

FZD

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I think you misunderstand the real utility of a true blind spot. A small patch of space attached to a ship where it cannot see is not a useful blind spot.
It's not quite that simple, I'll explain details per point you've made.

For ot to be useful you need to be able to approach the ship through that space. If you have to approach the ship through visible area first, it really does not matter much that there is 20 meters attached to the ship where it can't fire, especially if it has missiles that can lock and fire into that space.
Just because a ship is in your sights, doesn't mean you've destroyed it. If your gunner can't destroy the approaching enemy before it's out of his FOV, and your pilot can't return the enemy to the gunners FOV, then that blindspot very well matters.

Besides, can Polaris even lock and fire missiles at targets it's crew can't see? Since that's I thought LOS was a requirement for locking missiles. Could be I've just been pointlessly looking at the ships I'm trying to target tho.

Likewise, that tiny space you note around the rear of the Polaris is easy to fire into, simply by turning the Polaris. It really would be impossible for a ship to stay in that area with active piloting on the part of the Polaris.
"That tiny space" is 1/3rd of the Polaris' length. As in, ~50 meters long. Besides, assuming the larger ships had to face reality, you can't just spin a 220 ton object around without first gaining momentum. Of course, it could be that SC doesn't care about real world physics.

Look by way of contrast at the Redeemer. It was designed with a large rear facing area where the weapons cannot fire, that extends off to infinity, so if you can approach that ship from behind you can void all its fire arc.
Yes, and Aurora can only fire forwards. Blindspots are pretty much meaningless for smaller ships tho. Redeemer, like Freelancer which is of relative size, can most likely spin around in no-time flat, which is a bit comical tbh. There should be some momentum in play.

Thing is, as with any ships blind spot, good piloting discipline will turn a target regularly, which will put ships in a blind spot out into the open.
If you look at the blind spot Sanzennin ploted out for us, you'll see it is much too small to be used in the way one imagines. Any small maneuvering by the Polaris and the attacking ship will be in targetable position.
Doing some math here (real rough, just a quick estimate)

polaris dimensions: 155.00L x 81.08W x 38.64H, mass is 220 tons

A hornet for example can travel 220 m/s, to get it visible for rear gunner, the pilot would need to rotate the ship 45 degrees, which would mean a travel of 64m for the Hornet to stay in the blindspot. So the polaris would need to rotate 45 degrees in 0.3 seconds. Of course, the hornet would need some time to reach its maximum travel speed, but so would the polaris need some time to reach it's maximum angluar speed as well.

So it really depends on what's the max angular speed of the Polaris. I know a lot of the ships have (currently) some ridiculous angular speeds, completely ignoring momentum, but then again, at the moment you can also reach your ships maximum travel speed with just your forward thrusters, rather than firing up your actual engines. So obviously, some oversights are going to get fixed.

If what you want is to be able to fire on a target safe from return fire, you need to use longer range weapons or wait for the targets computer and maneuvering to go down.
Seen how, on the polaris the blindspot is right by the engines, that seems like a nice spot to contribute in downing the manouvering. But anycase, I never said it was easy, I said it's (most likely) doable.[/QUOTE]
 

Shadow Reaper

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A hornet for example can travel 220 m/s, to get it visible for rear gunner, the pilot would need to rotate the ship 45 degrees, which would mean a travel of 64m for the Hornet to stay in the blind spot. So the Polaris would need to rotate 45 degrees in 0.3 seconds. Of course, the hornet would need some time to reach its maximum travel speed, but so would the Polaris need some time to reach it's maximum angular speed as well.
This above does not describe the motions of the ships. The faster the Polaris is moving, the faster any change in direction will either throw the Hornet out of the blind spot, or smash it into the side of the Polaris. The blind spot is only as large as a Hornet, and if the Polaris has the speeds we ought to suspect--very close or equal to those of a fighter--then the Hornet will not be able to stay in the blind spot so long as the Polaris is maneuvering. Not even for one second. There is no need to rotate 45*.

The point is the Polaris only needs to rotate a couple degrees in order to move its blind spot sufficient to screw the Hornet, and those big guns will then make very short work of it. Hiding in an adjacent or convergent blind spot only works when the ship's computer is down and it can't maneuver, or with an especially large spot with a slow and lumbering ship.
 

Printimus

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This above does not describe the motions of the ships. The faster the Polaris is moving, the faster any change in direction will either throw the Hornet out of the blind spot, or smash it into the side of the Polaris. The blind spot is only as large as a Hornet, and if the Polaris has the speeds we ought to suspect--very close or equal to those of a fighter--then the Hornet will not be able to stay in the blind spot so long as the Polaris is maneuvering. Not even for one second. There is no need to rotate 45*.

The point is the Polaris only needs to rotate a couple degrees in order to move its blind spot sufficient to screw the Hornet, and those big guns will then make very short work of it. Hiding in an adjacent or convergent blind spot only works when the ship's computer is down and it can't maneuver, or with an especially large spot with a slow and lumbering ship.
I still dont think the Polaris or ANY capital ship is going to be as "maneuverable" as you are thinking... think of a small speedboat and its agility vs a jumbo oil tanker or aircraft carrier... the bigger ships take a LOT longer to turn, start, and stop

TL;DR - inertia
 

Shadow Reaper

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If we were talking about a Javelin, I would agree. We're talking about a Corvette, which is a ship about as fast as a fighter, and even if it rotates only 5*/second, that is enough that a fighter will not be able to stay in its blind spot.

Think about what happens at 200 m/s if you change direction 5*. Either the Hornet will smash into the side of the Polaris or it will suddenly be out in the field of fire. It only takes an instant to displace when you're moving fast, and the blind spot is only barely large enough to fit a fighter. (If you want to do the math, calculate the base of a right triangle with a 200m height and a 5* apex. Its gotta be several meters and you only need about 3m to either have a clean shot or smash the Hornet into the Polaris.)

Trust me, this is a great way to get yourself killed. You'd be much better off just choosing weapons that out-range your opponent and backing away as you engage.
 
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Printimus

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If we were talking about a Javelin, I would agree. We're talking about a Corvette, which is a ship about as fast as a fighter, and even if it rotates only 5*/second, that is enough that a fighter will not be able to stay in its blind spot.

Think about what happens at 200 m/s if you change direction 5*. Either the Hornet will smash into the side of the Polaris or it will suddenly be out in the field of fire. It only takes an instant to displace when you're moving fast, and the blind spot is only barely large enough to fit a fighter. (If you want to do the math, calculate the base of a right triangle with a 200m height and a 5* apex. Its gotta be several meters and you only need about 3m to either have a clean shot or smash the Hornet into the Polaris.)

Trust me, this is a great way to get yourself killed. You'd be much better off just choosing weapons that out-range your opponent and backing away as you engage.
Yeah, I still dont think the Polaris will be as fast as a fighter... yes its a corvette, but its still way bigger than a fighter....inertia will play its role in this fight, and not in the Polaris' favor.
 

FZD

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If we were talking about a Javelin, I would agree. We're talking about a Corvette, which is a ship about as fast as a fighter, and even if it rotates only 5*/second, that is enough that a fighter will not be able to stay in its blind spot.

Think about what happens at 200 m/s if you change direction 5*. Either the Hornet will smash into the side of the Polaris or it will suddenly be out in the field of fire. It only takes an instant to displace when you're moving fast, and the blind spot is only barely large enough to fit a fighter. (If you want to do the math, calculate the base of a right triangle with a 200m height and a 5* apex. Its gotta be several meters and you only need about 3m to either have a clean shot or smash the Hornet into the Polaris.)

Trust me, this is a great way to get yourself killed. You'd be much better off just choosing weapons that out-range your opponent and backing away as you engage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hjjIC_Ad5exOepLqVh1hWda5f5yhxcWfm2ZOZOUGjKQ/edit#gid=1742862932

I doubt Polaris would be much, if at all, faster than a Retaliator / Constellation / Freelancer.

Also, now, turning the ship starboard or port is kinda interesting idea, but I'm not sure if it would be faster than rotating around the length-axis, as you have much greater moment of inertia. Anyways, I made a scale model of Polaris and Hornet that's flying in the blindspot, then rotated the Polaris some. With about 10* turn, one of the turrets will get the Hornet in it's sights. Assuming that both ships are stationary and the polaris just rotates. Rotating to the other way would clip the Hornets peak, but I doubt the rotation would be fast enough to do any damage itself. The rear gunner would then get the Hornet in sights tho.

PolarisVsHornet.png


Then again, if the Hornet reacted to the rotation, it would seem it's possible, albeit not easy, to maintain that blindspot. I mean, when Polaris rotates that way, the Hornet only needs to move a few meters one way or the other. The hardest part will be recognizing the way the Polaris pilot is rotating.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I think that all is correct, but would note the Polaris was designed to kill fighters. You're going to need a much better plan to kill it with fighters. Just getting past the 3S missiles is going to be a huge challenge.
 
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