Coronavirus COVID-19 Thread

[NaffNaffBobFace]

During the initial waves there were a lot of deaths because ERs got overwhelmed and we were not sure how to deal with it.

This is a good point. During 2020/2021 a relative of mine died to their cancer. Their treatment had been disrupted by COVID-19. The virus didnt kill them, but it killed their chances of successful treatment.

If the masses of COVID sick had been kicked down the road and spread out enough, perhaps their treatment would not have been disrupted and my neices would still have a dad.

 

[Bambooza]

Im not sure if you need to hear this or not, but if you dont want to wear a mask, go for it, nobody is going to be upset.

Me personally, if there are two identical stores side by side, one is full of people wearing masks, the other has nobody wearing masks, all coughing and wheezing... Im going into the store with people wearing the masks. I dont need a peer reviewed study to decide if I want to breath your spit and coughs into my mouth.

I am not sure why this is the turn of the conversation about my mask-wearing choice? As far as I was aware the topic was on the effectiveness of mask-wearing not if I personally do or should.

 

[Bambooza]

This is a good point. During 2020/2021 a relative of mine died to their cancer. Their treatment had been disrupted by COVID-19. The virus didnt kill them, but it killed their chances of successful treatment.

If the masses of COVID sick had been kicked down the road and spread out enough, perhaps their treatment would not have been disrupted and my neices would still have a dad.

This is a valid consideration in so much as the knock-on effects due to most medical systems are naturally running with not a lot of available capacity so any increase in medical situations can easily overwhelm them and thus create a triage situation in which the most immediate cases get treated first. Not sure this is modifiable given the economic costs of increasing medical readiness in case of future events or even if it's possible given the medical shortages even before 2019. We also cannot forget that there were a lot of quickly built temporary medical facilities that went unused and so it could be more a case of fear of contracting covid19 or saving space for possible covid19 waves than lacking medical treatment resources. I know here in the USA dental and elective surgical centers were closed not because they were being used for treating covid19 but because of concern over the spread of covid19. The same can be said for Cancer centers and the medical staff would generally not be utilized for covid19 treatments as their training and specialty is not in that field.

 

[Montoya]

I am not sure why this is the turn of the conversation about my mask-wearing choice? As far as I was aware the topic was on the effectiveness of mask-wearing not if I personally do or should.

My apologies then, I just assumed you were presenting your personal opinions.

 

[Vavrik]

We have indeed had many conversations over the past few years about the purpose of masks and their usefulness in preventing the spread of viruses. My stance has always been while N95 masks without any airway bypass, worn correctly and not touched can statistically significantly (p-value greater than 0.05 ) reduce the chances that the infected individual will spread the virus onto others. But that outside of perfect lab conditions in the general population there have been lots of studies that show both limited if any impact as well as studies that show significant impact and that the debate has not been settled simply decisive (tribal cherry-picking that supports their view). It has been my view that very few people are wearing an effective mask correctly and that most mask-wearing is more security blanket/virtual signal (both mask-wearing/ non maks wearing) than an effective means of prevention. Lockdowns have proven a short-term effective means of slowing down/preventing the spread of the virus but at what costs and does it permanently reduce or simply delay? And my stance on lockdowns is it simply delays at a significant cost.

Like I said, it does not match your narrative. The purpose of the mask was not to protect you. It was to catch some of your sputum to protect others from you. To do that, you only need a barrier, not an N-95 respirator, although they work better. An N-99 is even better, but nonetheless a piece of cotton stuck over your nose and mouth are good enough to do the job they were expected to do.

And I am not a fan of lockdowns either. They were a bad decision made by Governments that were trying to work without knowledge and unable or unwilling to ask. Don't assume I'm criticizing a particular government.

 

[Bambooza]

My apologies then, I just assumed you were presenting your personal opinions.

Na my personal opinion is that people, in general, are far too interested in attempting to force everyone to do what they want them to do.

Like I said, it does not match your narrative. The purpose of the mask was not to protect you. It was to catch some of your sputum to protect others from you. To do that, you only need a barrier, not an N-95 respirator, although they work better. An N-99 is even better, but nonetheless a piece of cotton stuck over your nose and mouth are good enough to do the job they were expected to do.

We have had this conversation multiple times before. But the highlights

• were that the sputum capturing ability of most mask materials was limited to large particulates, and viable virus was found even in small particles that are far more likely to float around for a long period of time.
• maks are not worn properly and often people touch masks to adjust them which creates lots of opportunities for the hands to be covered in viruses and transferred to contact surfaces.
• it's not known if the virus is predominantly transferred by airborne particles or if it's far more common for it to be contact surface transmission. While it is known it is an airborne virus and given the areas it infects, I would bet it's predominantly transmitted by airborne particles it's still unknown.
• Masks are terrible at preventing you from being infected and require everyone around you to not only wear a mask but wear them correctly and still wash their hands frequently while also not touching their mask.
• That the best prevention is for the sick to self-isolate but given the prevalence of asymptomatic and virus shedding prior to the development of symptoms, it's not really an effective option.
• That natural immunity is just as effective as the vaccine and both don't prevent you from getting covid19 again or dying from it. I will add that the vaccine is a great way (hopefully) to reduce the risk of death for those over 55 or who are not otherwise healthy.
• One other thing that has been noticed is this winter after the downward trend of the common cold last year it came back this year in a big way with a larger than normal antibiotic demand due to sinus infections. The question was if it was due to a more nasty strain of the common cold or if people's immune systems atrophied of sorts due to the lack of exposure.

My hope is that given the scale of the sample sizes and many different test cases some p significant results can be gathered that answers the question of mask effectiveness. Especially now that the world's focus has mostly pivoted to other topics.

 

[Vavrik]

We have had this conversation multiple times before. But the highlights

• were that the sputum capturing ability of most mask materials was limited to large particulates, and viable virus was found even in small particles that are far more likely to float around for a long period of time.
• maks are not worn properly and often people touch masks to adjust them which creates lots of opportunities for the hands to be covered in viruses and transferred to contact surfaces.
• it's not known if the virus is predominantly transferred by airborne particles or if it's far more common for it to be contact surface transmission. While it is known it is an airborne virus and given the areas it infects, I would bet it's predominantly transmitted by airborne particles it's still unknown.
• Masks are terrible at preventing you from being infected and require everyone around you to not only wear a mask but wear them correctly and still wash their hands frequently while also not touching their mask.
• That the best prevention is for the sick to self-isolate but given the prevalence of asymptomatic and virus shedding prior to the development of symptoms, it's not really an effective option.
• That natural immunity is just as effective as the vaccine and both don't prevent you from getting covid19 again or dying from it. I will add that the vaccine is a great way (hopefully) to reduce the risk of death for those over 55 or who are not otherwise healthy.
• One other thing that has been noticed is this winter after the downward trend of the common cold last year it came back this year in a big way with a larger than normal antibiotic demand due to sinus infections. The question was if it was due to a more nasty strain of the common cold or if people's immune systems atrophied of sorts due to the lack of exposure.

My hope is that given the scale of the sample sizes and many different test cases some p significant results can be gathered that answers the question of mask effectiveness. Especially now that the world's focus has mostly pivoted to other topics.

Trying this again. you got most of it right, except the part where we've had over 2 years now to adjust what we thought we knew with the reality.
It's an airborne virus btw, which means airborne is the primary way it is transmitted. That is not to say it is the only way transmission occurs, just the most common way. That also does not mean that breathing it in is the only or even most common way of becoming infected. Now the problem is, if you are infected you might not know for days. A mask, literally even a cloth mask breaks the velocity of viral particles when you exhale, talk, laugh, cough or sneeze, thus protecting others around you if you are infected - even if you don't know you're infected.

Also, you should be washing your hands fairly often anyway, just because we're human and we do touch things that aren't healthy to stick in your mouth. We also do stuff like rubbing our eyes, scratching or even picking our noses. It's amazing how many people don't give a shit about their intake of piss and shit, yet they don't like eating broccoli. But that face touching becomes a primary vector for bacterial and viral infection even if you are wearing a mask. No, wearing a mask is not very good at protecting the person wearing the mask from infection. Welcome to humanity.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

• were that the sputum capturing ability of most mask materials was limited to large particulates, and viable virus was found even in small particles that are far more likely to float around for a long period of time.
• Masks are terrible at preventing you from being infected and require everyone around you to not only wear a mask but wear them correctly and still wash their hands frequently while also not touching their mask.
• That the best prevention is for the sick to self-isolate but given the prevalence of asymptomatic and virus shedding prior to the development of symptoms, it's not really an effective option.

Adding to what @Vavrik has supplied and in these three quoted aspects in particular the initial Viral Load someone is exposed to is also a factor in serverity of infection.

The smaller and fewer particles reaching a potential host means a smaller initial viral load meaning the virus needs to replicate more in the host before it reaches the level of becomong a problem, which takes longer and gives the immune system time to detect and remove the virus while it is manageable.

I cannot recall if this has been bought up with you specifically in thr past but it has been bought up on the thread before.

As for not doing as you are asked, sometimes its stickin' it to the man, and sometimes....

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq-wU41vmU

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Welcome to humanity.

It is no coincidence that the definition of "Humanitarian" is someone devoted to the common good and welfare of others.

It reminds me of a story I was told in my youth, the origin of which is likely biblical but i dont know for sure, i'll fill in the gaps here of what i have forgotten over time but the gist is:

A person was one day lementing they were not rich and powerful and had no way to improve the wellbeing of themselves personally and those they knew and loved in the world. A kind spirit passing by heared their words on the wind and whisped them up transporting them to the very depths of hell itself.

There the person saw a glorious banquet table loaded with delicious foods, but there was much wailing of hunger from those sat round it for they all had chopsticks as long as their arms to eat with. Try as they might, they could not bring a single morsel to their lips and all writhed in eternal torment.

The spirit then took them up to the lofty hights of heaven and the person was surprised to see exactly the same scene, a banquet table with chopsticks as long as your arm but those sat round it were happy, content, enjoying each others good company and very well fed... watching further, they saw the people they were not vainly trying to feed themselves, they were cooperating by picking up food and feeding each other.

The selfless cooperation and acting in the interest of their fellows ensured they were in turn taken care of and was the difference in an identical situation being eternal suffering and eternal comfort.

Such is similar with masks and their transmisability reduction factors rather than self defence factors. When all act in the interests of others, they too are defended.

 

[ColdDog]

Really, we're still debating masks? If they were so great, this debate would have ended Feb, 27th 2020 when Jolly started this thread. The fact you folks still have not figured it out says everything.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

Really, we're still debating masks? If they were so great, this debate would have ended Feb, 27th 2020 when Jolly started this thread. The fact you folks still have not figured it out says everything.

 

[minor_accident]

Is there anyone who would prefer their open-heart or open-brain surgeon to not wear a mask? You know, since they're so pointless. And Lord knows how ineffective gloves are, with 20-25% chance a cell sized object may pass through (let alone viral sized!!). Hell, maybe the entire OR staff should wear their farm-work Dickies, and just come straight in from feeding the chickens?

It may not be perfect, but every bit helps? BAH!.... 100% effective or 0% effective, that's MY jam!

 

[Montoya]

Na my personal opinion is that people, in general, are far too interested in attempting to force everyone to do what they want them to do.

Those red dots are states where people felt very strongly about not being told what they should do.

 

[ColdDog]

Those red dots are states where people felt very strongly about not being told what they should do.

So you say virtue signaling is the scientific answer. Maybe there is data under that data, like some of those states have much older populations. Anyone who mandates a mask, my child to learn certain history, isolate (saying he is different) his brown pervian ass in the name of social justice, or tells kids there is no right or wrong, tells kids the world is going to end in 10 years, the government knows best... fuck them... that is one side pushing itself on us... so yes fuck these people. Last I looked those COViD models fell over... way off the mark... so will the global warming models... same bullshit... the only difference is our group will be debating if raindrops are blue or white.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

So you say virtue signaling is the scientific answer. Maybe there is data under that data, like some of those states have much older populations. Anyone who mandates a mask, my child to learn certain history, isolate (saying he is different) his brown pervian ass in the name of social justice, or tells kids there is no right or wrong, tells kids the world is going to end in 10 years, the government knows best... fuck them... that is one side pushing itself on us... so yes fuck these people. Last I looked those COViD models fell over... way off the mark... so will the global warming models... same bullshit... the only difference is our group will be debating if raindrops are blue or white.

"Maybe"

 

[ColdDog]

Lol... its ok... since these people cant obviously learn from their mistakes they deserve whatever consequences come there way. Coercion based on false or bias data never leads to anything good... bullying in America only leads to pissed off people and pissed of Supreme Court Judges. Midterms are only 4/5 months away, and everything will change. I hope people like me never forget the meanness, bullying, strife, and division this last group of elected leaders brought to my Country. Because the liberals of my country were so stupid, the conservatives put traditionalist judges on the court. Conservative play the long game, liberals play the short, we'll see who wins. There is no middle anymore, and basically the political war just got worse. Move to Canada if you don't like it... run away from the country that gave you so much when times got tough. As far as I am concerned stay away.

 

[Vavrik]

So you say virtue signaling is the scientific answer. Maybe there is data under that data, like some of those states have much older populations. Anyone who mandates a mask, my child to learn certain history, isolate (saying he is different) his brown pervian ass in the name of social justice, or tells kids there is no right or wrong, tells kids the world is going to end in 10 years, the government knows best... fuck them... that is one side pushing itself on us... so yes fuck these people. Last I looked those COViD models fell over... way off the mark... so will the global warming models... same bullshit... the only difference is our group will be debating if raindrops are blue or white.

Actually that is not what virtue signaling is (not a discussion for this forum and you can look it up if you like) but yes there is a problem with the data presentation. Not the data, just the presentation. It has a political overlay that was not intended by the authors of the data, and doesn't actually make sense in the context they're apparently trying to show. If you do the colors for regions, or remove the colors altogether, you can actually learn something about the pandemic.

Move to Canada if you don't like it... run away from the country that gave you so much when times got tough. As far as I am concerned stay away.

I am Canadian by the way. I just live in Texas.

 

[ColdDog]

I am Canadian by the way. I just live in Texas.

You live in Texas... great. I hope you enjoy my country and all it has to offer, made by many different people of different political persuasions.

I like Canada, I just think people are yellow and shallow if you move from a country (US to Canada) that has given them so much over politics of the day. In the military, presidents come and go, but we don't run when a new leader is elected, neither does our civil servants.

Anyway, like I said, I really don't give a shit about masks or COVID (tried the masks, tried the vaccinations, tried the social distancing, tried all the bullshit you talk about here) - I was ignorant to think it all made a difference. Now I have changed my mind.

Yes, there is a large elderly populations that moved to the south for retirement - FL all the way over to California. Warmer and more air (not at elevation). Just so happens that the southern states are red.

The presentation was shit... arrogantly snobbish. So, there are reasons, many reasons old people die and it is not just for covid.

I do, know there was debate about the reported numbers of deaths... that by itself discredits it in my book - tired of all the crap that comes from these people. Forgive me if I don't believe that politically motivated bullshit.

 

[ColdDog]

So I guess, you Canadians will need to move to China once everyone gets tired of the right bullshit.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viOSyhgvQZQ

I'm done... no more politics just dumbasses talking about covid.

 

[Bambooza]

Trying this again. you got most of it right, except the part where we've had over 2 years now to adjust what we thought we knew with the reality.
It's an airborne virus btw, which means airborne is the primary way it is transmitted. That is not to say it is the only way transmission occurs, just the most common way. That also does not mean that breathing it in is the only or even most common way of becoming infected. Now the problem is, if you are infected you might not know for days. A mask, literally even a cloth mask breaks the velocity of viral particles when you exhale, talk, laugh, cough or sneeze, thus protecting others around you if you are infected - even if you don't know you're infected.

While correct it is found in and proven to be transmittable by airborne pathways its only speculated that the primary way it's transmitted is by airborne means. There has not been any study yet published that looks into the probability of different pathways as it's still deemed impossible to trace. (an unethical test would be to take a sample of different strains and spread it in a populated area in specific ways and see how many get infected). So until such a study is performed it's all theory craft as to the effect of different measures and their effectiveness. (unless a published study that I have missed has been done that shows the probability graphs of each transmission pathway) While there have been studies done on viral loads in repository particulates, breath spread through different mediums, and isolated mice to show it can be transmitted airborne, nothing has shown if inhaling virtual particulars is the most effective or common means of transmission. We had this conversation before and @Montoya said that even if masks reduce transmission by 1% of 1% it's still worth it. While I conceded that mask-wearing is not a big deal and if it makes others feel safe and does offer some if limited protection it's better than nothing. But this does not mean that the science is settled or proves anything beyond isolated tests show some impact. But when looking at the overall spread it could be that masks wearing is like attempting to bail out a pool using a teaspoon. While it does work it's far from the most effective means to do so. (it could also be that masks reduce the tendency of people to touch their eyes and noses and wash their hands more often which can be far more effective)

So the assumption that it's the most common way is not supported by any evidence so far. So anything based upon that assumption needs to be questioned and reevaluated.

Also, you should be washing your hands fairly often anyway, just because we're human and we do touch things that aren't healthy to stick in your mouth. We also do stuff like rubbing our eyes, scratching or even picking our noses. It's amazing how many people don't give a shit about their intake of piss and shit, yet they don't like eating broccoli. But that face touching becomes a primary vector for bacterial and viral infection even if you are wearing a mask. No, wearing a mask is not very good at protecting the person wearing the mask from infection. Welcome to humanity.

Or brushing our teeth with a brush we leave near an open toilet. Or simply going into a public bathroom it's surprising we are not sick more often. Hospitals have spent billions on attempting to find out how bacteria is infecting surgery patients when they take inhuman effort to try and keep the surgical theater clean. There is a lot we simply don't know and don't currently seem to possess the ability to find out.

Adding to what @Vavrik has supplied and in these three quoted aspects in particular the initial Viral Load someone is exposed to is also a factor in serverity of infection.

The smaller and fewer particles reaching a potential host means a smaller initial viral load meaning the virus needs to replicate more in the host before it reaches the level of becomong a problem, which takes longer and gives the immune system time to detect and remove the virus while it is manageable.

Once again this is a working theory as to why some people seem to have a far more significant reaction to the virus over others within the same family group. But to base everything on these assumptions is dangerous. The truth is we don't know and are looking into the possibility, but we should be careful of knowing the boundaries of what is mostly known and what is still very much a wild guess.

I cannot recall if this has been bought up with you specifically in thr past but it has been bought up on the thread before.

As for not doing as you are asked, sometimes its stickin' it to the man, and sometimes....

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq-wU41vmU