Countering Star Citizen "Spys"

[Blind Owl]

TESTs unique membership has a sort of built-in anti-spai system.

Imagine a herd of sheeps. The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around and the sheeps move. This is a normal Org. If one of the dogs wants to bite the Shepard, it will. If all of his dogs want to rip him to bloody pieces, the sheeps will look on unable to react or do anything about it.

A wolf in sheeps clothing comes along and melts in with the sheeps. It watches what goes on. Perhaps convinces the sheeps he knows better than the Shepard, perhaps changes to look like a wolf in dogs clothing waiting for the time to turn on the Shepard...

This is usual Org politics and usual Org Spai nonsense.

Now imagine a herd of cats.
The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around, and the cats do whatever the fuck they want.
The Shepard says: "Get in the fucking barn already, cats!"
And the cats are like: "Pffft yeah one day maybe."
The Shepard whistles and his dogs run around more.
The cats scatter "I show you my arse, eat some non-gender-specific genitals" say the cats because they are disrespectful.
"For fuck sake!" Says the Shepard.
Some of the cats will do as requested, if only for that day saying "you'd better not get used to this, I do this because it seems more entertaining than that other thing I was going to do today"
That is why 14000 members works and TEST works.

A wolf in cats clothing arrives.
It kind of stands out. Cats are little, wolves are pretty hefty.
It watches what goes on, but because it is chaos cannot make sense of it - There is no sense in chaos, what they see is actually what is happening, you can't find a hidden agenda when there isn't one.
"I know better than the Shepard" the wolf says to the cats.
"So?" says the cats "We all know something better than the Shepard, RiceMaiden for example knows loads more about making models than the Shepard."
"But I can bring you more of what you want!" Cries the wolf.
"We got Beer, it comes from the shop In Real Life, I had to go buy it myself - you got nothing." the cats hiss back.
So the wolf changes to look like a dog in wolfs clothing and runs around after the cats but they scatter and are generally uncontrollable.
"How in the absolute hell...?" says the wolf.
"I know" Says the Shepard stood behind him having watched all of this. "You want this? Take it you'd be doing me a favor."
"But there is no power here, there is no control." The wolf replied.
"These are the players who know a game is a game. They want to play and they will play. You want to work a game, join an Org. You want to play a game, join TEST. There is loyalty here, but these people come together to play the game with and for each other and that is where the loyalty is, not for Me, not for my orders, not for this Org. I went on holiday for two weeks and no none noticed until I got back." Says the Shepard.
"What is the point?" The wolf sighs.
"Exactly." Says the Shepard. "Try this Biltong. It's great."

Spais can try, but they are looking for things that don't exist and want to control people who won't be controlled. You may as well try to hold back or change the direction of the tide.

This. This is beautiful. And hilarious. And very very true.

 

[Blind Owl]

We are legion. Also, we are Owl apparently

We are also drunk. Don't forget drunk!

SOTS 16 is a self-aware A.I. construct that has been let loose on Spectrum and Reddit. It currently is sifting through all the user accounts and is filtering the would-be spai's out. When the spai's finally decide to act against us, SOTS 16 will infect their computers and permanently set their homepages on their internet browsers to meat spin and tubgirl

True story. Beware the self-aware AI.

These are the players who know a game is a game. They want to play and they will play. You want to work a game, join an Org. You want to play a game, join TEST. There is loyalty here, but these people come together to play the game with and for each other and that is where the loyalty is

This articulates how I feel to a tee.

Thats not lemonade you can ask @Blind Owl what it truly is.....

It was lemonade. I swear it was lemonade. *curls into a ball and starts crying*

you cant tell me what to do, you arnt my real dad!

But you are my mouth.

 

[Printimus]

We are also drunk. Don't forget drunk!

True story. Beware the self-aware AI.

This articulates how I feel to a tee.

It was lemonade. I swear it was lemonade. *curls into a ball and starts crying*

But you are my mouth.

But I am your mouth.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

How would organizations counter / deal with spys within the organization?

You can't eliminate nor stop spies. There are two tools for reducing their effectiveness. Our situation here at TEST is almost identical to that I face at work, and the solution is properly known as "Corporate Counterintelligence". CC generally operates in two spheres, passive and active. Passive CC involves keeping confidential information "compartmentalized" as much as possible, meaning you do not share things with whole groups until the moment to act, so no one can use the information about a plan until it is too late to do so. Compartmentalization is the key to all CC success and if you need to talk about what you do, you will never avoid spies. Compartmentalization requires you keep your mouth shut.

Active CC involves carefully planned misdirection. It is wise to have a strategy of active CC, where you are continuously putting data out there for folks to steal that leads them in the wrong direction, and helps you locate who is collecting your false data. Identifying a spy and learning about them over long periods of time can be a fantastically useful thing, in that it gives you a way to deliberately misinform your opponents on the proper occasions. This takes more time and effort, but to be sure TEST would do well to have such active CC refined to a great art. Just needs people to want to spend their time thinking up the ploys used.

BTW, just 2+ years ago now, intellectual property theft by the Chinese of American properties skyrocketed from the tens of billions each year, to over 300 billion dollars each year. IIRC, last year the thefts by the Chinese in the US were estimated at $318 Billion. That is more money than we spend on all our wars combined, and generally thefts like this justify war. Spies are very real and very busy. It is stupid to ignore them.

https://www.dni.gov/files/NCSC/documents/Regulations/ProtectingKeyAssets_CorporateCIGuide.pdf

 

[Marcel Busse]

 

[DirectorGunner]

sooo... much... reading! :dizzy_face:

 

[Injustice]

sooo... much... reading! :dizzy_face:

Looks like you need a beer!

 

[Blind Owl]

But I am your mouth.

So you'd better be drinking beer then.

 

[DontTouchMyHoHos]

It would be 90$ / Pillow ..

Dont care about the thread, just had to say I want to purchase one.

 

[Printimus]

So you'd better be drinking beer then.

I never stopped.

 

[Mich Angel]

TESTs unique membership has a sort of built-in anti-spai system.

Imagine a herd of sheeps. The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around and the sheeps move. This is a normal Org. If one of the dogs wants to bite the Shepard, it will. If all of his dogs want to rip him to bloody pieces, the sheeps will look on unable to react or do anything about it.

A wolf in sheeps clothing comes along and melts in with the sheeps. It watches what goes on. Perhaps convinces the sheeps he knows better than the Shepard, perhaps changes to look like a wolf in dogs clothing waiting for the time to turn on the Shepard...

This is usual Org politics and usual Org Spai nonsense.

Now imagine a herd of cats.
The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around, and the cats do whatever the fuck they want.
The Shepard says: "Get in the fucking barn already, cats!"
And the cats are like: "Pffft yeah one day maybe."
The Shepard whistles and his dogs run around more.
The cats scatter "I show you my arse, eat some non-gender-specific genitals" say the cats because they are disrespectful.
"For fuck sake!" Says the Shepard.
Some of the cats will do as requested, if only for that day saying "you'd better not get used to this, I do this because it seems more entertaining than that other thing I was going to do today"
That is why 14000 members works and TEST works.

A wolf in cats clothing arrives.
It kind of stands out. Cats are little, wolves are pretty hefty.
It watches what goes on, but because it is chaos cannot make sense of it - There is no sense in chaos, what they see is actually what is happening, you can't find a hidden agenda when there isn't one.
"I know better than the Shepard" the wolf says to the cats.
"So?" says the cats "We all know something better than the Shepard, RiceMaiden for example knows loads more about making models than the Shepard."
"But I can bring you more of what you want!" Cries the wolf.
"We got Beer, it comes from the shop In Real Life, I had to go buy it myself - you got nothing." the cats hiss back.
So the wolf changes to look like a dog in wolfs clothing and runs around after the cats but they scatter and are generally uncontrollable.
"How in the absolute hell...?" says the wolf.
"I know" Says the Shepard stood behind him having watched all of this. "You want this? Take it you'd be doing me a favor."
"But there is no power here, there is no control." The wolf replied.
"These are the players who know a game is a game. They want to play and they will play. You want to work a game, join an Org. You want to play a game, join TEST. There is loyalty here, but these people come together to play the game with and for each other and that is where the loyalty is, not for Me, not for my orders, not for this Org. I went on holiday for two weeks and no none noticed until I got back." Says the Shepard.
"What is the point?" The wolf sighs.
"Exactly." Says the Shepard. "Try this Biltong. It's great."

Spais can try, but they are looking for things that don't exist and want to control people who won't be controlled. You may as well try to hold back or change the direction of the tide.

Absolutely amazing perfect and hilariously spot on, awesome writing.

:beers: :beers: :beers: :beers: :beers: :beers: :beers: :beers: :beers:

 

[Black Sunder]

TESTs unique membership has a sort of built-in anti-spai system.

Imagine a herd of sheeps. The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around and the sheeps move. This is a normal Org. If one of the dogs wants to bite the Shepard, it will. If all of his dogs want to rip him to bloody pieces, the sheeps will look on unable to react or do anything about it.

A wolf in sheeps clothing comes along and melts in with the sheeps. It watches what goes on. Perhaps convinces the sheeps he knows better than the Shepard, perhaps changes to look like a wolf in dogs clothing waiting for the time to turn on the Shepard...

This is usual Org politics and usual Org Spai nonsense.

Now imagine a herd of cats.
The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around, and the cats do whatever the fuck they want.
The Shepard says: "Get in the fucking barn already, cats!"
And the cats are like: "Pffft yeah one day maybe."
The Shepard whistles and his dogs run around more.
The cats scatter "I show you my arse, eat some non-gender-specific genitals" say the cats because they are disrespectful.
"For fuck sake!" Says the Shepard.
Some of the cats will do as requested, if only for that day saying "you'd better not get used to this, I do this because it seems more entertaining than that other thing I was going to do today"
That is why 14000 members works and TEST works.

A wolf in cats clothing arrives.
It kind of stands out. Cats are little, wolves are pretty hefty.
It watches what goes on, but because it is chaos cannot make sense of it - There is no sense in chaos, what they see is actually what is happening, you can't find a hidden agenda when there isn't one.
"I know better than the Shepard" the wolf says to the cats.
"So?" says the cats "We all know something better than the Shepard, RiceMaiden for example knows loads more about making models than the Shepard."
"But I can bring you more of what you want!" Cries the wolf.
"We got Beer, it comes from the shop In Real Life, I had to go buy it myself - you got nothing." the cats hiss back.
So the wolf changes to look like a wolf in dogs clothing and runs around after the cats but they scatter and are generally uncontrollable.
"How in the absolute hell...?" says the wolf.
"I know" Says the Shepard stood behind him having watched all of this. "You want this? Take it you'd be doing me a favor."
"But there is no power here, there is no control." The wolf replied.
"These are the players who know a game is a game. They want to play and they will play. You want to work a game, join an Org. You want to play a game, join TEST. There is loyalty here, but these people come together to play the game with and for each other and that is where the loyalty is, not for Me, not for my orders, not for this Org. I went on holiday for two weeks and no none noticed until I got back." Says the Shepard.
"What is the point?" The wolf sighs.
"Exactly." Says the Shepard. "Try this Biltong. It's great."

Spais can try, but they are looking for things that don't exist and want to control people who won't be controlled. You may as well try to hold back or change the direction of the tide.

 

[Sirus7264]

You can't eliminate nor stop spies. There are two tools for reducing their effectiveness. Our situation here at TEST is almost identical to that I face at work, and the solution is properly known as "Corporate Counterintelligence". CC generally operates in two spheres, passive and active. Passive CC involves keeping confidential information "compartmentalized" as much as possible, meaning you do not share things with whole groups until the moment to act, so no one can use the information about a plan until it is too late to do so. Compartmentalization is the key to all CC success and if you need to talk about what you do, you will never avoid spies. Compartmentalization requires you keep your mouth shut.

Active CC involves carefully planned misdirection. It is wise to have a strategy of active CC, where you are continuously putting data out there for folks to steal that leads them in the wrong direction, and helps you locate who is collecting your false data. Identifying a spy and learning about them over long periods of time can be a fantastically useful thing, in that it gives you a way to deliberately misinform your opponents on the proper occasions. This takes more time and effort, but to be sure TEST would do well to have such active CC refined to a great art. Just needs people to want to spend their time thinking up the ploys used.

BTW, just 2+ years ago now, intellectual property theft by the Chinese of American properties skyrocketed from the tens of billions each year, to over 300 billion dollars each year. IIRC, last year the thefts by the Chinese in the US were estimated at $318 Billion. That is more money than we spend on all our wars combined, and generally thefts like this justify war. Spies are very real and very busy. It is stupid to ignore them.

https://www.dni.gov/files/NCSC/documents/Regulations/ProtectingKeyAssets_CorporateCIGuide.pdf

Yep they stole our best fighter jet technology also recently and made their "Own" version....... IP is handled very badly these days as people don't understand when something is warrented as IP and how to handle/disclose the information. I'm always willing to help you guys structure information if needed I'm no Spai!

 

[Vogonjeltz]

Here's an early concern but been thinking about it. How would organizations counter / deal with spys within the organization. Especially one with thousands of members.

Lemme break it down to solo playing, spys or traitors, how would I counter someone who wants to steal my goods when hauling goods as i hired him as a merc.?

Star Citizen will have a rep system but now what if on a big scale, the Organization has a huge trade or mission, one person helps their group take them down. Because its either billions of credits and lose of rep with shinny ships OR within a organization that didnt give you that rank that you've been working hard towards.

Spy... well, after not being hit with meaningless hate, they will spend more time on the good site. whether or not they are "Affiliated with a hate group" the wil realize they hang out with other groups more. unfortunately it becomes a departed scenario where they are litterally one of the group that they were in charge of monitoring.

Here's an early concern but been thinking about it. How would organizations counter / deal with spys within the organization. Especially one with thousands of members.

Lemme break it down to solo playing, spys or traitors, how would I counter someone who wants to steal my goods when hauling goods as i hired him as a merc.?

Star Citizen will have a rep system but now what if on a big scale, the Organization has a huge trade or mission, one person helps their group take them down. Because its either billions of credits and lose of rep with shinny ships OR within a organization that didnt give you that rank that you've been working hard towards.

don't care a whole lot. private convos are private convos. KOS is not allowed so over time those orgs will be further banned..... not like AA is banned for their KOS, though I'll admit, their shenanigans have been severely diminished. I think sub groups will be more influential, plus I hope account criminal stats are attributed, not just character stats.

 

[DirectorGunner]

It would be 90$ / Pillow ..

Dont care about the thread, just had to say I want to purchase one.

We already did a group buy for the one on the right, looks like you'll have to take the one on the left :ok_hand:

 

[CLazimi]

Here's an early concern but been thinking about it. How would organizations counter / deal with spys within the organization. Especially one with thousands of members.

Lemme break it down to solo playing, spys or traitors, how would I counter someone who wants to steal my goods when hauling goods as i hired him as a merc.?

Star Citizen will have a rep system but now what if on a big scale, the Organization has a huge trade or mission, one person helps their group take them down. Because its either billions of credits and lose of rep with shinny ships OR within a organization that didnt give you that rank that you've been working hard towards.

we are not secret org all here can do what they want i mean explore priate or any thing else

the game its only in start i am sure when game be out our mangment make some rules who u can attack who u need leave allies enemys the game only in is alpha no points look for spyes rn or spies other org rn its useless alot changes need to coming

 

[GrammarGestapo]

you will never stop all spies. They will become a fact of life. We have to design systems to resist being damaged by one or a few people. However, even that won't stop all of them. Spies occasionally penetrate as high as the board of directors of major alliances in EVE. They will go just as far in star citizen.

 

[RiceMaiden]

I am a Triple Agent!

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

you will never stop all spies. They will become a fact of life. We have to design systems to resist being damaged by one or a few people. However, even that won't stop all of them. Spies occasionally penetrate as high as the board of directors of major alliances in EVE. They will go just as far in star citizen.

This is why a good 'ol fashioned Tyranny may be just the ticket as far as Orgs go. Top dog has the account to move things about. Only way to steal all of that is to steal the account which is a crime in Real Life punishable by prison etc.

Considering the 'Verse is going to be 90% NPC and 10% players and the UEE already has its boarders and processes defined, I don't feel the PU will be able to support the major kind of Org to Org territory shenanigans which make infiltration and destruction such an attractive option. It'd be like Pepsi and Coke suddenly having an all out war where Pepsi steals Cokes secret formula (if you recall, Pepsi was offered it by a thief and they reported him rather than look at the recepie).

Yeah, some people will try to topple Orgs for 'Fun', but there is more than one way to have that kind of 'Fun':
They can read these really whacky spreadsheets I keep on hand for when I meet people like that, wow they'll get a real kick out of 'em they have formulas and everything, and after that I have a tin of Beige paint for them to redecorate their rooms with and if they still haven't had enough 'Fun' at that point I'd introduce them to this Pet Rock they can play with for hours on end, and if that wasn't enough fun I have the Dictionary right here just waiting for them to read through and then write a 20,000 word Essay on... The potential for boring 'Fun' is figuratively limitless. Novelty Ties. Any Jigsaw ever created. Golf.

 

[Takeiteasy]

TESTs unique membership has a sort of built-in anti-spai system.

Imagine a herd of sheeps. The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around and the sheeps move. This is a normal Org. If one of the dogs wants to bite the Shepard, it will. If all of his dogs want to rip him to bloody pieces, the sheeps will look on unable to react or do anything about it.

A wolf in sheeps clothing comes along and melts in with the sheeps. It watches what goes on. Perhaps convinces the sheeps he knows better than the Shepard, perhaps changes to look like a wolf in dogs clothing waiting for the time to turn on the Shepard...

This is usual Org politics and usual Org Spai nonsense.

Now imagine a herd of cats.
The Shepard whistles, his dogs run around, and the cats do whatever the fuck they want.
The Shepard says: "Get in the fucking barn already, cats!"
And the cats are like: "Pffft yeah one day maybe."
The Shepard whistles and his dogs run around more.
The cats scatter "I show you my arse, eat some non-gender-specific genitals" say the cats because they are disrespectful.
"For fuck sake!" Says the Shepard.
Some of the cats will do as requested, if only for that day saying "you'd better not get used to this, I do this because it seems more entertaining than that other thing I was going to do today"
That is why 14000 members works and TEST works.

A wolf in cats clothing arrives.
It kind of stands out. Cats are little, wolves are pretty hefty.
It watches what goes on, but because it is chaos cannot make sense of it - There is no sense in chaos, what they see is actually what is happening, you can't find a hidden agenda when there isn't one.
"I know better than the Shepard" the wolf says to the cats.
"So?" says the cats "We all know something better than the Shepard, RiceMaiden for example knows loads more about making models than the Shepard."
"But I can bring you more of what you want!" Cries the wolf.
"We got Beer, it comes from the shop In Real Life, I had to go buy it myself - you got nothing." the cats hiss back.
So the wolf changes to look like a wolf in dogs clothing and runs around after the cats but they scatter and are generally uncontrollable.
"How in the absolute hell...?" says the wolf.
"I know" Says the Shepard stood behind him having watched all of this. "You want this? Take it you'd be doing me a favor."
"But there is no power here, there is no control." The wolf replied.
"These are the players who know a game is a game. They want to play and they will play. You want to work a game, join an Org. You want to play a game, join TEST. There is loyalty here, but these people come together to play the game with and for each other and that is where the loyalty is, not for Me, not for my orders, not for this Org. I went on holiday for two weeks and no none noticed until I got back." Says the Shepard.
"What is the point?" The wolf sighs.
"Exactly." Says the Shepard. "Try this Biltong. It's great."

Spais can try, but they are looking for things that don't exist and want to control people who won't be controlled. You may as well try to hold back or change the direction of the tide.

I don't get it.