Crypto discussion

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
And this is where any sane person should really get suspicious. Crypto is an add driven hype about bits of software that represent highly volatile fantasy assets without any intrinsic value.


Rant on:
It's an inherently wasteful technology and therefore absolutely not futureproof in any way as it is now. This technology will require much more developement and probably a whole different approach in order to fire up the IoT visions for tommorow and still be sustainable. As most likely outcome for IoT I think official digital currencies will ultimately win. The cryptotokens of today might pave the way for the developement of he tech but will likely stay in their niche for taxevaders and money laundry or just die. As the whole concept of smart contracts only just starts to shine when you think about automated IoT exchange. Cryptotoken are no currency they depend on poeple willing to exchange currency for them. If IoT works directly with an actual currency there's no real need for a fantasy token.

Proof of work is a waste of processing power:
Out of 100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 calculated bitcoinblocks only 1 actually gets to be part of the chain while 99.999.999.999.999.999.999.999 calculated blocks are wasted energy.

Proof of Space: basically same thing just precalculated. Waste of Space.

Lastly about the beloved Ether. Once that's Proof of Stake it might get less wasteful but soon it's not even DeFi. There will be like 20 huge Serverfarms worldwide that will validate the chain. How can anyone think that's decentralized just because it might spread geographically.

That doesn't mean you can't make a dime or two while the hype stays on...
It will always be some waste but as technology advances calculations will be conducted faster at lower energy costs. below are a list of the mining performance taken from tom's hardware as a good example. I'll compare the 1080 with the 3070 as they have about the same power usage the 3070 actually has 10w less. so back in 2016 you have a mining performance of 32.1 and now in 2021 its up to 61.3 that is almost double the calculations with only 5 years of technology advancements. as we have seen with computing over our lifetimes these numbers are going to become absolutely dog poop in about 10 years and we will probably have quadruple the calculations by those time unless the end of the world happens or something. so for the same amount of power we get double output so yeah there is waste like there always in in anything we do but we get more output. Other things we need to consider is our advancements in energy efficiencies etc over those next 10 years also like are we going to move more tword nuclear power? Every house uses solar power? or hell maybe we will finally get Fusion or space energy farming or something. Last but not least Crypto has only become mainstream for about 5 or so years and that to is also going to evolve as developers work on how crypto is used in the world So yeah it feels like we are being wasteful but in all honesty they are negatable.
GeForce GTX 1060 6GB$35125.090W$2.82124.5
Radeon RX 590$45028.6130W$3.16142.4
GeForce RTX 2070$73843.8130W$5.01147.4
GeForce RTX 2060 Super$73943.7129W$5.00147.9
Radeon RX 5700$88151.3133W$5.91149.1
Radeon RX 580 8GB$47929.0135W$3.20149.8
GeForce GTX 1070$47828.2114W$3.15151.7
GeForce GTX 1080$54632.1138W$3.57153.1
GeForce GTX 1660 Super$54530.275W$3.49156.3
Radeon RX 5600 XT$71839.6115W$4.53158.4
GeForce GTX 1660$46225.370W$2.90159.1
GeForce GTX 1660 Ti$55429.773W$3.43161.4
GeForce RTX 3060 12GB$90948.6118W$5.62161.8
GeForce GTX 1080 Ti$79744.0197W$4.87163.6
GeForce RTX 2070 Super$82843.9128W$5.02164.8
Radeon RX Vega 64$75342.5254W$4.55165.4
Radeon RX 5700 XT$1,00451.8119W$6.01167.2
GeForce RTX 2060$62733.0125W$3.71169.1
Radeon RX 5500 XT 8GB$50726.381W$3.00169.0
Radeon RX Vega 56$73239.2174W$4.34168.6
Radeon RX 6700 XT$94647.1120W$5.43174.2
Radeon RX 6800$1,34064.5166W$7.43180.2
GeForce RTX 2080$95043.8129W$5.01189.6
GeForce RTX 3060 Ti$1,38460.6116W$7.08195.5
GeForce RTX 3070$1,40361.3123W$7.15196.2
GeForce RTX 2080 Super$99843.9124W$5.03198.3
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti$1,36660.1180W$6.87198.9
GeForce RTX 3080$2,20293.9234W$10.84203.1
Radeon RX 6800 XT$1,56864.6186W$7.40211.9
Radeon VII$2,06583.6231W$9.60215.1
GeForce RTX 3090$3,124116.5279W$13.48231.8
Radeon RX 6900 XT$1,90064.6183W$7.41256.6
 

Ploeperpengel

Admiral
Jun 17, 2018
243
752
700
RSI Handle
Sadis
It will always be some waste but as technology advances calculations will be conducted faster at lower energy costs. below are a list of the mining performance taken from tom's hardware as a good example. I'll compare the 1080 with the 3070 as they have about the same power usage the 3070 actually has 10w less. so back in 2016 you have a mining performance of 32.1 and now in 2021 its up to 61.3 that is almost double the calculations with only 5 years of technology advancements. as we have seen with computing over our lifetimes these numbers are going to become absolutely dog poop in about 10 years and we will probably have quadruple the calculations by those time unless the end of the world happens or something. so for the same amount of power we get double output so yeah there is waste like there always in in anything we do but we get more output. Other things we need to consider is our advancements in energy efficiencies etc over those next 10 years also like are we going to move more tword nuclear power? Every house uses solar power? or hell maybe we will finally get Fusion or space energy farming or something. Last but not least Crypto has only become mainstream for about 5 or so years and that to is also going to evolve as developers work on how crypto is used in the world So yeah it feels like we are being wasteful but in all honesty they are negatable.
In all honesty they aren't. You forget the longer a blockchain gets the more ressources are required to validate it. And we are talking much bigger numbers of waste than any other production process I know of by far. I mean bitcoin is inefficient on a galactic scale here and many other token aren't just there yet because they're comparably small in trade volume.
Today's GPUs aren't even enough anymore to validate bitcoin i.e.. You need special equipment for that. All that waste is happening right now in a critical phase of climate change where the next 10 years are the most important nearly every scientist says. I'm not only against this just because I'm mad I still can't buy a GPU for a fair price - well, that's part of it. But I can make sure my gaming hobby will run on clean energy very soon as I already plan my solar roof. The major part of the crypto market doesn't care about such things at all yet or not nearly enough. Exception being as stated earlier Proof of Stake tokens which loose the benefit of being decentralized.
 

Doggen

Space Marshal
Dec 9, 2015
1,134
3,581
2,260
RSI Handle
Doggen
I know nothing about crypto but Ive been pressing a button on my phone everyday to mine Pi coins(?) so Im pretty sure I will be rich in a few months.
 
  • o7
Reactions: Ploeperpengel

BUTUZ

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 8, 2016
2,693
8,809
2,350
RSI Handle
BUTUZ
*strokes me Radeon Vii's Picked them up for 525 each. Oh the lols.
 

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
*strokes me Radeon Vii's Picked them up for 525 each. Oh the lols.
Yeah man the prices are crazy now i think these prices are based off ebay currently. Even prebuilt prices are shooting up because of supply and demand they want their piece of the pie. If prices were MSRP the 3070 would be the best mining card on the market dollar for performance. You would think by now Nvidea would increase their factories and the transistor production. Not sure what the goal is here maybe they are making a marketing move to increase the value of their cards?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ploeperpengel

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
9,094
34,462
2,525
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
Yeah man the prices are crazy now i think these prices are based off ebay currently. Even prebuilt prices are shooting up because of supply and demand they want their piece of the pie. If prices were MSRP the 3070 would be the best mining card on the market dollar for performance. You would think by now Nvidea would increase their factories and the transistor production. Not sure what the goal is here maybe they are making a marketing move to increase the value of their cards?
Shits only worth what people will pay for it and when something becomes unattainable people will find a new, cheaper and easier alternative to do something. If the GPU makers are not careful Integrated Graphics CPUs or some other technology will come along and although it may not be as good as a dedicated GPU, at $1000+ per card it doesn't have to be, it just has to be good enough and $200 and it will slice the GPU market off at the knees.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ploeperpengel

Ploeperpengel

Admiral
Jun 17, 2018
243
752
700
RSI Handle
Sadis
Nvidia isn't stupid. They don't want to make their traditional customers more angry than they already are. They still want to take their cut by also creating sideline products specialized for mining purposes. Conflicts with the gaming market since every wafer that's produced for mining purposes is a wafer not produced for gaming and that's stretched a market as can be but still intelligent marketing. High performance gpus might actually become obsolete for mining purposes as AMD and Nvdia are trying to establish specialized mining equipment. Though only Nvidia limits Gaming cards atm. It might be wise for AMD to follow on foot here. After all, if the crypto bubble explodes you can simply drop the mining products and say with mediocre credibility you cared about gamers all the time ;)
There's some hope Ethereum miners will drop GPU prices when the 2.0 version of that shit arrives btw. Some game magazines already expect prices close to UVP by end of July because miners might panic sell their mining rigs. Let's hope there's some truth to that. I won't buy a used card though - just because out of spite...
 
  • Like
Reactions: NaffNaffBobFace

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
In all honesty they aren't. You forget the longer a blockchain gets the more ressources are required to validate it. And we are talking much bigger numbers of waste than any other production process I know of by far. I mean bitcoin is inefficient on a galactic scale here and many other token aren't just there yet because they're comparably small in trade volume.
Today's GPUs aren't even enough anymore to validate bitcoin i.e.. You need special equipment for that. All that waste is happening right now in a critical phase of climate change where the next 10 years are the most important nearly every scientist says. I'm not only against this just because I'm mad I still can't buy a GPU for a fair price - well, that's part of it. But I can make sure my gaming hobby will run on clean energy very soon as I already plan my solar roof. The major part of the crypto market doesn't care about such things at all yet or not nearly enough. Exception being as stated earlier Proof of Stake tokens which loose the benefit of being decentralized.
This is pretty normal for any process when it comes to computers. look at the way information was stored in the past like when i was young 512kb was a lot of space and BMP files etc were just "To wasteful" on the way they made images etc. 512kb.... now what we look at hard drives which are 12 TB at the same size and power? then we have the formats of files and movies etc which exceed 50 GB etc we would have never seen ourselves with this kind of power at our fingertips. You want to truely effect climate change? Back nuclear power you will see coasts of energy harmful wastes etc from coal, oil etc will be nonexitant. with just 1 nuclear plant you can retire 2 coal plant with the same MWH for 580,000 tons of toxic waste each year not including the carbon dioxide releases. they even say fly ash is more radioactive then nuclear waste from these plants. With 94 plants total they all together produce only 2000 tons of waste per year. 2000 ton's of nuclear waste is very small due to the weight of uranium itself they say all of the nuclear waste produced and stored in the united states can fill a football field at leass than 10 yards deep its solid to so it is not going to go anywhere stored in tubes. Another fun fact is we don't even recycle it our nuclear waste like europe does so that 2000 tons of waste and all the other 84000 tons of nuclear waste could be reduced dramatically if we just recycled it and reused it. I think the navy is probably the most wasteful when it comes to nuclear fuel as we dispose of them with still usable life we do this for safety purposes but that takes 15-25 years for refueling for a carrier. that is the real solution to our energy crisis people just don't want to accept it because a few plants in the world have had issues. If you read about Chernobyl you will understand why it happened there were so many points in which they could have stopped themselves yet they turned off their safety restraints and systems bypassed a lot of safety mechanisms throughout their experiment. it is a very good read btw and you will say to yourself wtf were they thinking what fucking idiots. Sorry im very passionate about nuclear power i use to work on board a nuclear carrier as a nuclear mechanic for several years. Ive been eye to eye next to a nuclear reactor touched it the whole 9 yards. graphics cards are not the problem its the way we make energy.
 

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
Shits only worth what people will pay for it and when something becomes unattainable people will find a new, cheaper and easier alternative to do something. If the GPU makers are not careful Integrated Graphics CPUs or some other technology will come along and although it may not be as good as a dedicated GPU, at $1000+ per card it doesn't have to be, it just has to be good enough and $200 and it will slice the GPU market off at the knees.
Exactly! id be totally happy if a 3rd party suddenly came onto the scene and started mass production of their cards to teach nvidea and AMD a lesson intel maybe?
 

Ploeperpengel

Admiral
Jun 17, 2018
243
752
700
RSI Handle
Sadis
This is pretty normal for any process when it comes to computers. look at the way information was stored in the past like when i was young 512kb was a lot of space and BMP files etc were just "To wasteful" on the way they made images etc. 512kb.... now what we look at hard drives which are 12 TB at the same size and power? then we have the formats of files and movies etc which exceed 50 GB etc we would have never seen ourselves with this kind of power at our fingertips. You want to truely effect climate change? Back nuclear power you will see coasts of energy harmful wastes etc from coal, oil etc will be nonexitant. with just 1 nuclear plant you can retire 2 coal plant with the same MWH for 580,000 tons of toxic waste each year not including the carbon dioxide releases. they even say fly ash is more radioactive then nuclear waste from these plants. With 94 plants total they all together produce only 2000 tons of waste per year. 2000 ton's of nuclear waste is very small due to the weight of uranium itself they say all of the nuclear waste produced and stored in the united states can fill a football field at leass than 10 yards deep its solid to so it is not going to go anywhere stored in tubes. Another fun fact is we don't even recycle it our nuclear waste like europe does so that 2000 tons of waste and all the other 84000 tons of nuclear waste could be reduced dramatically if we just recycled it and reused it. I think the navy is probably the most wasteful when it comes to nuclear fuel as we dispose of them with still usable life we do this for safety purposes but that takes 15-25 years for refueling for a carrier. that is the real solution to our energy crisis people just don't want to accept it because a few plants in the world have had issues. If you read about Chernobyl you will understand why it happened there were so many points in which they could have stopped themselves yet they turned off their safety restraints and systems bypassed a lot of safety mechanisms throughout their experiment. it is a very good read btw and you will say to yourself wtf were they thinking what fucking idiots. Sorry im very passionate about nuclear power i use to work on board a nuclear carrier as a nuclear mechanic for several years. Ive been eye to eye next to a nuclear reactor touched it the whole 9 yards. graphics cards are not the problem its the way we make energy.
No, again just no. I find crypto, as it is, is irresponsible atm. Nuclear power, as it is, is even worse. Absolutely noone can guarantee the safety of future generations with nuclear waste lying in the ground. This stuff is a hazard not for generations but for eons! As much as I would like to elaborate on that. That would be offtopic. And I don't want to smart ass about everything. Rest assured whatever our differences - and they seem to be fundamental - they won't stop me from helping you in a fight if we meet in the verse as long you're a Testpilot.

That said, I want to reply to the "when it comes to computers" topic as it's kind of related and it's my area of expertise. That's also a strong NO. Scaleability nowadays IS absolutly a thing in every developement process regarding IT in general - except crypto shit, which is kind of a devs vs. admin instead of devops aproach which might be hard to explain - nevermind. What I'm trying to say, in terms of scaleability, crypto - right now - just sucks!

512KB vs 12 TB might seem a huge difference to you but 100 x (1e+21) vs 1 is totally another level! I didn't use the term "galactic scale/level" lightly.
 

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
No, again just no. I find crypto, as it is, is irresponsible atm. Nuclear power, as it is, is even worse. Absolutely noone can guarantee the safety of future generations with nuclear waste lying in the ground. This stuff is a hazard not for generations but for eons! As much as I would like to elaborate on that. That would be offtopic. And I don't want to smart ass about everything. Rest assured whatever our differences - and they seem to be fundamental - they won't stop me from helping you in a fight if we meet in the verse as long you're a Testpilot.

That said, I want to reply to the "when it comes to computers" topic as it's kind of related and it's my area of expertise. That's also a strong NO. Scaleability nowadays IS absolutly a thing in every developement process regarding IT in general - except crypto shit, which is kind of a devs vs. admin instead of devops aproach which might be hard to explain - nevermind. What I'm trying to say, in terms of scaleability, crypto - right now - just sucks!

512KB vs 12 TB might seem a huge difference to you but 100 x (1e+21) vs 1 is totally another level! I didn't use the term "galactic scale/level" lightly.
it's cool we don't need to agree i understand your feelings on the 2 subjects btw if nuclear waste ever truely did become an issue we can shoot it into the sun done deal just load a rocket full of it and send it up(even though that is super wasteful id much rather reuse it) we can't do the same with coal waste carbon dioxide emission etc and didn't i say fly ash was 100X more radioactive than nuclear waste? i might have missed that point but people don't care bout that lol anyhow yeah lets move on with this topic i don't want this to become a fight fest or something.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
9,094
34,462
2,525
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
it's cool we don't need to agree i understand your feelings on the 2 subjects btw if nuclear waste ever truely did become an issue we can shoot it into the sun done deal just load a rocket full of it and send it up(even though that is super wasteful id much rather reuse it) we can't do the same with coal waste carbon dioxide emission etc and didn't i say fly ash was 100X more radioactive than nuclear waste? i might have missed that point but people don't care bout that lol anyhow yeah lets move on with this topic i don't want this to become a fight fest or something.
And if the Rocket pops half a mile off the pad you've got another Chernobyl/Fukushima/Trinity Test fallout area to stay away from.

So realistically you'd have to build a launch facility in the middle of nowhere so if a launch failed there would be minimal societal impact. Which means you have to get the earth's let's say 1000+ tonnes of nuclear waste from all over the planet to that place but moving it also carries a risk of contamination while it's traveling.

Lets say a total payload of 1 tonne meaning you need 1000 launches to get rid of the 1000 tonnes of maaterial - if there is a 1% failure rate in launches that's 10 tonnes of nuclear waste spread across that area...

Oh and looking it up, the current radioactive waste audit says there is 445,000 tonnes of heavy metal fuel waste, and millions of tonnes of additional varying grades of radioactive level waste.

EDIT - In addition to that I've just looked up how many space launches there have been in known human history, it's between 35,000 and 40,000 so assuming we could launch a tonne of waste at a time it's going to take 10 times as many launches than have ever happened to clear the backlog of just the most problematic waste... I don't know how many of those launches were suborbital, orbital and extraorbital but as the aim is the sun a hefty percent of those 40,000 launches to date would not qualify as counting, too...

The realities of launching nuclear waste in to space don't really stack up...
 
Last edited:
  • o7
Reactions: Ploeperpengel

Montoya

Administrator
Staff member
Oct 31, 2013
8,623
46,459
3,055
RSI Handle
Montoya
Some game magazines already expect prices close to UVP by end of July because miners might panic sell their mining rigs.
Many will try switch to other GPU coins and quickly realize that payouts will not be that great. I suspect most will just keep mining, but good number should be selling their rigs and just stake ETH.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ploeperpengel

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
And if the Rocket pops half a mile off the pad you've got another Chernobyl/Fukushima/Trinity Test fallout area to stay away from.

So realistically you'd have to build a launch facility in the middle of nowhere so if a launch failed there would be minimal societal impact. Which means you have to get the earth's let's say 1000+ tonnes of nuclear waste from all over the planet to that place but moving it also carries a risk of contamination while it's traveling.

Lets say a total payload of 1 tonne meaning you need 1000 launches to get rid of the 1000 tonnes of maaterial - if there is a 1% failure rate in launches that's 10 tonnes of nuclear waste spread across that area...

Oh and looking it up, the current radioactive waste audit says there is 445,000 tonnes of heavy metal fuel waste, and millions of tonnes of additional varying grades of radioactive level waste.

EDIT - In addition to that I've just looked up how many space launches there have been in known human history, it's between 35,000 and 40,000 so assuming we could launch a tonne of waste at a time it's going to take 10 times as many launches than have ever happened to clear the backlog of just the most problematic waste... I don't know how many of those launches were suborbital, orbital and extraorbital but as the aim is the sun a hefty percent of those 40,000 launches to date would not qualify as counting, too...

The realities of launching nuclear waste in to space don't really stack up...
Lol the shooting it into space thing was kind of a joke but yeah who knows it could happen someday. You can get radiation from just being in your basement. As for a failed launch if it failed and the load is properly protected it isnt going to just go everywhere. spent fuel isnt a powder or something it is a super hard Dense rock in a container see below picture of spent fuel.

This is the canister and how the spent fuel is protected.

1624577578789.jpeg
That little pellet is the uranium pellet that goes in the tube this is the uranium the radioactive component of a nuclear reactor. They go inside of what we call a plug or fuel rod. that little pellet ways 10g when nuclear fission occurs it breaks downon the molecular level and produces gamma's alpha's neutrons in a process called fission(This is different then fussion btw) there are millions inside of a reactor.(This is all on the commercial side btw)
1624576867857.png
neutrons are absorbed into uranium/plutonium and do 1 of 2 things become stable at the next isotope up or they undergo fission and the neutrons produced in this cycle continue to cause additional fission. When fission occurs the gammas, alphas heat up the transfer medium to extreme temperatures under pressure this heat is then transferred to boilers using the medium weither it be sodium water etc to create stem to rotate turbine generators.
1624577125749.png
the uranium moecule that split then becomes a biproduct which is constantly decaying to become a stable molecule the most common is cesium-137, xenon-133, and iodine 131 this scale is what types of products can occur some have extremely long half lives. cesium which is the most commonly known one has a 30 year half life(this means in 30 years half of the product will be gone so if you had 2 then now you have 1 etc. it becomes barium-137).

Anyhow back to the process of what happens after the fuel is spent.

It is put into a pool for storage where it will either be reprocessed to usable fuel again or put underground in a storage facility.

They are then put into dry storage casks or other forms of storage and put 300M under the earth's crust. in secure locations. Now you might here things such as "Nuclear waste has 24,000 years of half life." what they are talking about there is Plutonium-239 and a few other rare fission products that can occur. This does not happen very often at all you get about 1.15% of spent fuel as plutonium overall 53% of it being Pu-239 now we might think oh plutonium 239 is awful but actually it is used further when reprocessed as either reactor grade fuel or weapons grade plutonium. so sure we could let it decay for that long or we can use it. i hope this eases your concerns a bit and gives you a bit more education on the subject. pretty much we dont take spent fuel out of a fuel assembly unless we are reprocessing it it stays inside the plugs along with all of their nuclear by products.

As for the 445,000 tons of heavy metal fuel waste 250,000 of that is spent nuclear fuel dating back all the way to the 1950s. The 84000 tons i mentioned earlier is only the united states which none of that fuel has been reprocessed it just sits in their storage facilities underground never to be touched because the United states refuses to acknowledge reprocessing it. I'm sure it will come one of these days which will reduce the amount of waste we have.

If you want to be against nuclear power thats fine like i said to the other guy we can agree to disagree that is way more clean than coal oil etc. I will never agree that putting as much carbon dioxide into the air is better than a little space we use 300 m below the surface to store not completely depleted uranium. if anything destroys this planet those will be the culprit long before nuclear reactors.(Nuclear bombs are not nuclear reactors lets get that straight now)
 

Sirus7264

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 5, 2017
3,006
10,245
1,800
RSI Handle
Sirus7264
WTF people... I came here to learn about crypto, and now Im an expert in nuclear waste disposal.

Thanks a lot internet!
hahaha my bad i'll try to turn the subject off i just wanted to give a little education i feel that not enough important information on the subject is ever put out and people get misinformed from bs on the internet.
 

RokkitVan

Commander
Jun 17, 2021
6
30
100
RSI Handle
RokkitVan
Fun fact...

Stories are starting to come out of two brothers in my country that ran off with people's crypto "investments" of around $3.5 billion.They alleged the keys were "stolen" and they "lost" access to the system back ends. They (both brothers and crypto) have now disappeared completely, and are rumored to have fled the country.


//Edit: This is the second such case this year. 🤨
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ploeperpengel
Forgot your password?