Face tracking, my worries and issues.

[Lorddarthvik]

Head tracking Just from a face is not so easy. I done it in proper cgi software and if you don't have track points, it's bad. I guess if you have a shiny young face, it will fail a lot more than not, unless you put some markers on it. Interpolating head rotation and position just from eyes won't work properly, you will need the extra points like nose and mouth. Same issue as in facetracknoir, no points to track, it will lose your head and keep snapping back or rotating randomly. Also it's very disorienting unless the motion on screen is smoothed a bit...

In short, this technology needs a lot of work to make it viable for the player.

 

[Bruttle]

When SC is going to be played by players, it will look a lot like the speedrun they did after their pilot crashed during the demo. It won't look anything like the scripted stuff and the roleplaying they were trying to do.
Also, think of it this way: I'm funding someone to build a car. Then he takes my money and, WAAAAAAAY before the pile of parts looks anything like a car, adds spinners, a vinyl player, a toaster and a fishtank (no pun intended) to it.
To be honest, I was disheartened by yesterday's presentation.

This is exactly my sentiment. To be honest, I was upset when I saw the foip, but pissed when they said they have been working on it for the last year. This was not a stretch goal. This was not anything we backed. We did not ask for this.

Like I said in another thread, it's cool. It's ground breaking. However, you absolutely need to consider how often it will get used in the day-to-day. Take the current MMO games as an example. Out of the millions of players, how many can you even get to log into voip? Out of that small percentage, how many will even talk in that voip?. That's just voice chat using a cheap mic. How infinity small of a percentage will actually buy the specialty camera and actually run foip? It will be a ridiculously small percentage.

The only chance this feature has, is if it is rolled out slowly. It needs a chance to be accepted by the player base. It needs a chance to prove itself as a valuable addition to the player's control set. It definitely doesn't need to be added now. Right now, they need to concentrate on getting the game they promised to the release date. Right now, they need to clear the items they are currently working on.

They have absolutely no cause to reinvent the wheel when they can't even get a car to run up a ramp on live television with hundreds of thousands of players watching...

 

[Blind Owl]

I like what I see, if you dont, dont fund his dream.

I prescribe to this train of thought.

Considering the number of times the community has let CIG have it with both barrels about redoing work, perhaps this time we should be giving them kudos instead.

Amen. I concur.

 

[Maxgerber5250]

well all of us Track IR and ED Tracker users just got butt hurt. We are now obsolete. We are looking at the future of head tracking, and its looking good.

 

[Varku]

About the Faceanimation thing:
Hmm, don't see much use for it. Most of the time you won't see faces that well, as they're in helmets, or not facing you as they sit in an other ship/...
And there is a quite decent tech to generate lipsync animations based on sound. (Guildwars 2 uses this tech)
Which propaly uses less cpu power than the facetracking.

About the Headtracking thing:
this is actual a nice feature which I can see some decent use in. And as this kidn of requires facetracking anyways, the faceanimation thing is a kind of free grab.

Conclusion:
So I guess(hope) CIG first just wanted to get Headtracking for everyone. And on the path to getting it they noticed: hey we can get personal faceanimations from it for free, let's grab that too while we're at it.

 

[Frisbeerocker]

Its only a gimmick at the early stages. It'll either fail or succeed.

I'm all in. Anything they do I'm down for.

 

[marcsand2]

well all of us Track IR and ED Tracker users just got butt hurt.

Nope, I disagree, we already have something which the rest has to wait for until it is fully implemented and working properly.

We are now obsolete.

I don't hope so, why would CIG throw away something which works for something that still has to prove itself? A better option would be to use both options, TrackIR and facetracknoir. Facetracknoir has the big advantage that you don't need to use the trackclip and the USB cable and that it can track expressions, but in the end it is just a motion that has to be translated to an in-game head movement. Similar as flying with flightsticks or mouse, both work.

We are looking at the future of head tracking, and its looking good.

Yeap, it definitely does.

This is exactly my sentiment. To be honest, I was upset when I saw the foip, but pissed when they said they have been working on it for the last year. This was not a stretch goal. This was not anything we backed. We did not ask for this.

CIG is using a similar technology for the facial animations of the movie clips in Squadron 42, they just enhanced it so it is not only usable for the facial animations in the movie clips but also can be used for the interaction in PU

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTHptO-E5RU

 

[CosmicTrader]

This function will be extremely fun for our TEST Streamers.
Personally, I can't wait to see @sgt_gamble doing this. Ha. Ha.

 

[Michael]

Nope, I disagree, we already have something which the rest has to wait for until it is fully implemented and working properly.


I don't hope so, why would CIG throw away something which works for something that still has to prove itself? A better option would be to use both options, TrackIR and facetracknoir. Facetracknoir has the big advantage that you don't need to use the trackclip and the USB cable and that it can track expressions, but in the end it is just a motion that has to be translated to an in-game head movement. Similar as flying with flightsticks or mouse, both work.


Yeap, it definitely does.


CIG is using a similar technology for the facial animations of the movie clips in Squadron 42, they just enhanced it so it is not only usable for the facial animations in the movie clips but also can be used for the interaction in PU

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTHptO-E5RU

I think the whole discussion is:
Everyone like it and thinks its cool.

Group A:
Thinks its cool but might be not as useful. Also CR went to faceware and said " Heres 20 Mio bucks and 200 of me employes. Work this shit out" Faceware :"Can i has one night with Sandy, too?" CR: "Yeah cool bro"

Group B:
Thinks its cool. CR went to faceware and said "Ey mate gib SDK and camera" Faceware "Here you are" CR: " Oh look it works"

The truth is somewhere in between but we don't know where exactly.

 

[Printimus]

I think the whole discussion is:
Everyone like it and thinks its cool.

Group A:
Thinks its cool but might be not as useful. Also CR went to faceware and said " Heres 20 Mio bucks and 200 of me employes. Work this shit out" Faceware :"Can i has one night with Sandy, too?" CR: "Yeah cool bro"

Group B:
Thinks its cool. CR went to faceware and said "Ey mate gib SDK and camera" Faceware "Here you are" CR: " Oh look it works"

The truth is somewhere in between but we don't know where exactly.

When you find out just where that truth may lay, go ahead and let us know.

 

[Printimus]

well the issue there is I have already funded his dream, and I am worried that if he keeps adding and changing his dream it will never become reality. In the past he has changed it, and for the most part I have enjoyed what I have seen. However I want to play Star Citizen, so my issue is that something like this, where it has no real gameplay value may have got time or priority over part of his dream that I helped fun.

No real gameplay value? Are you joking? It's adding more to the immersion of the game than any other game has even attempted before. There are HUNDREDS of employees within CIG and not every single person under that umbrella can work on 3.0, they all have different jobs and tasks. With that being said, they have the funds to hire outside talent (such as Faceware Tech) to help implement this amazing technology into the future of SC.

 

[sum1]

No real gameplay value? Are you joking? It's adding more to the immersion of the game than any other game has even attempted before. There are HUNDREDS of employees within CIG and not every single person under that umbrella can work on 3.0, they all have different jobs and tasks. With that being said, they have the funds to hire outside talent (such as Faceware Tech) to help implement this amazing technology into the future of SC.

I am never going to see it, notice it, or worry about it. so for me there is no gameplay value here. It adds nothing to my experience of playing the game. And I feel that the hundreds of employees could have been better tasked to add a more valuable aspect for the game. Like getting all the animations done for S42, or more mission givers for 3.0-3.1. Maybe I am wrong, but at this point I want CIG to focus on KEY elements of gameplay and getting both SC and SQ42 out into our hands rather then something that seems, to me at least, to add very little and only delay features we have been waiting years for.

 

[Printimus]

I am never going to see it, notice it, or worry about it. so for me there is no gameplay value here. It adds nothing to my experience of playing the game. And I feel that the hundreds of employees could have been better tasked to add a more valuable aspect for the game. Like getting all the animations done for S42, or more mission givers for 3.0-3.1. Maybe I am wrong, but at this point I want CIG to focus on KEY elements of gameplay and getting both SC and SQ42 out into our hands rather then something that seems, to me at least, to add very little and only delay features we have been waiting years for.

You will see it, its part of the game now. You will notice it cause thats how people are going to express themselves in the game.

Hundreds of employees cant all work on the same exact tasks at the same time. Thats like asking 300 comcast technicians to come out and hook up your internet for you. They cant ALL do the same job.

CIG IS working on key elements to the game, hence the burndown report.

You wanna run it the way you think its best? Start up your own game and see how well you do.

 

[Blind Owl]

Its only a gimmick at the early stages. It'll either fail or succeed.

I'm all in. Anything they do I'm down for.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[sum1]

You will see it, its part of the game now. You will notice it cause thats how people are going to express themselves in the game.

Hundreds of employees cant all work on the same exact tasks at the same time. Thats like asking 300 comcast technicians to come out and hook up your internet for you. They cant ALL do the same job.

CIG IS working on key elements to the game, hence the burndown report.

You wanna run it the way you think its best? Start up your own game and see how well you do.

No I will not see it, yes it may be on my screen, but I will not care or worry about it at all. because to me it is the least important thing.

I am not asking them to put 300 employees on the same task. I am asking them to put them on tasks that are important to gameplay like getting mining in the game, or working on SQ42, they have enough on their plates as is. So to add another thing, that as I have stated before, is unimportant to the actual gameplay is a diversion of resources from somewhere.

Sure I will make my own game you want to give me $157,731,555 to do it?

Its not about running your own game or anything like that. The point is to realize that SC is a project that we have put money into, some of us a lot. I believe in the project, however that does not believe that CR can do not wrong. I want a return on my investment in the shape of an epic video game. So what I am doing is questioning a choice I see as flawed. Because I love this project I will question it, at every turn if I must. Because CR owes us a game. Maybe he was able to do this without taking anyone off key parts of the project, if so I would like to know that. Because then I would see this feature as a added bonus not a delay on another part of the game. So fanboy over CR and SC all you want. I am going to take a vested interest and ask hard question, to try to make my money spent better to make the greatest game of all time, that is my goal. I will fanboy when the product that I have paid for is in my hands. But until then I will question any choice that has not been explained to my satisfaction.

 

[mindfart]

Keep whining, won't change anything xD Stop spending your energy on trying to 'influence' the game or something(/ninjaedit on our forums, which will especially never ever have an effect on anything, try spectrum)
Enjoy what you get, hope it will work out the way you want it to, and if it doesn't don't go whining about it...

This feature has a lot of people hyped, and a lot of autists don't see why.. I get that, but please... just know your opinion is your opinion, don't present it as fact, cause you'll just look like an asshole xD

/2cents

 

[sum1]

Keep whining, won't change anything xD Stop spending your energy on trying to 'influence' the game or something.
Enjoy what you get, hope it will work out the way you want it to, and if it doesn't don't go whining about it...

This feature has a lot of people hyped, and a lot of autists don't see why.. I get that, but please... just know your opinion is your opinion, don't present it as fact, cause you'll just look like an asshole xD

/2cents

All I am trying to do is have a civil discussion, trying to find out why people are hyped over it, and presenting the issue in the light I see it. If you don't want to be part of the conversation then no one is forcing you.

 

[Varku]

All I am trying to do is have a civil discussion, trying to find out why people are hyped over it, and presenting the issue in the light I see it. If you don't want to be part of the conversation then no one is forcing you.

Okay, let me try to answer the question why people are hyped:
#1 Chris Robert says it's cool. (For some people that's enough)
#2 There is a huge amount of people who don't want to play, but to live star citizen, this feature helps them to dive deeper into the universe, as it enlarges the Roleplaying options/Charakter immersion.
#3 Gameplay wise the Headtracking has the potential to be usefull
#4 It's a new tech that many people haven't seen jet, especialy not in a game, so they're happy to nerd out a bit.

These are propaly some of the bigger reasons why people hype Foip.
For me it's mostly #3 and #4

PS: and I belive that only a "small" team of CIG employes has had worked on this, I would be surprised if the team was larger than 20. Most of the Work have been done be Facewear I guess.
And I don't think that the designers who workout the faceanimation stuff have much else to do at this state of the game. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)

 

[Mich Angel]

This I have to answer and it might be some SALT! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I say REALLY!

It is C.R.'s dream, you agree to the project where ever it goes and as far as I know he still ask our opinion and take in a lot of our ideas and suggestions something he actually don't have to do.

When you sign up and back with your money to build a game a game that he wanted to do, not me not you not us and we agree to support his dream of a game he want to make when signing up.

Just something to think about..before anyone think to much about whether something is right for the game or not that is C.R. final decisions and he don't have to share or care shit about what we think about it BUT he does and every one does in the project ( I think that is amazing )

Personally in MY opinion I think it is a great gesture of trust that he let all backer be, in nose deep in to this project and some time more than often let us have a say in things be cause he want to hear and actually care what we think...
IF we can be constructive and mature when offering our thoughts.

Totally okay in my book, Do I like all decisions made, NO not by far BUT it always gone the right way in the end to ward next goal in the project.

I do respect others having different opinion and thoughts think that is is good and might benefit the project IMO

That said I love the idea of the VOIP and FOIP with head tracking "awesome thing" as some one said specially the head-tracking,
wow I 'm saving money on that not having to buy that darn insane expensive Track-IR that set price like they do be cause they have no competition in the area.
HA! Now they do... and about f*n time :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

I can understand that this might be confusing for many but face animation is in the game and been the plane to be from the start...
so no extra time have been spent there than what already been planed and no extra time have been spent on integration taking resources from project to do this. FOIP

If you take some time and do little proper research about this you'll see most this new functions have been almost for free since all part been in game. Now they have FOIP thanks to a external partner that want their product tested to the max as in they have been given the SDK for the face-tracking at NO COST and no resources since all code and what is needed for that is already written and already work before they got it.

They just needed to connect the dots,.....

SO!

You can look on this as if you decide to build a car then some company have a new sound system they want tested and promoted, so they give you a awesome sound system to your car building project and there is very little resources going in for you to implement that finished product to your car project. A product you been given that is made to be implemented and already work on it's own as is, so it come with all cable and things you need. All you do is spend some time plugging it in and shore you will spend some resource time to fine adjust it.

Now to REALY!
Is that something to be upset about, something to cry, whine and be worried about as many are.

Just be cause a live demo of a game in ALPHA crashed?! oh and it did it live.buhuu!.,
Wake the f* up it is suppose to crash.. it's ALPHA that is what ALPHA releases does best, if anyone don't know this then that one is spending their time in the wrong place IMO.

They got a functional working product that fit part of their build like a glove and it's free... !?!?

I really do not get it?

What is the problem here....??

CHEERS! :beer::beer::beer::beers::beers::beers:

 

[sum1]

Okay, let me try to answer the question why people are hyped:
#1 Chris Robert says it's cool. (For some people that's enough)
#2 There is a huge amount of people who don't want to play, but to live star citizen, this feature helps them to dive deeper into the universe, as it enlarges the Roleplaying options/Charakter immersion.
#3 Gameplay wise the Headtracking has the potential to be usefull
#4 It's a new tech that many people haven't seen jet, especialy not in a game, so they're happy to nerd out a bit.

These are propaly some of the bigger reasons why people hype Foip.
For me it's mostly #3 and #4

PS: and I belive that only a "small" team of CIG employes has had worked on this, I would be surprised if the team was larger than 20. Most of the Work have been done be Facewear I guess.
And I don't think that the designers who workout the faceanimation stuff have much else to do at this state of the game. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)

Thank you here is my mindset for those who my wonder why I am not hyped for this.
1: It seems cool, One mans word will never be enough to convince me of anything, even if that man is CR
2: I get wanting to live SC, and I get wanting to RP it, and yes if that is you, then have at it. As much as I want to play it. As much as I love Star Wars, Firefly and all other Sci-fi that got me to back this game, at the end of the day it is just a game. I wish I could live it but unless someone can freeze me til 2945.
3: I am planning on using VR or build a simpit, as I when I did head tracking it felt unconformable to me, but some people love it....
4: I have seen a lot of "new tech" come and go because it was not worth the trouble for very little gained. We have yet to see what the case is here, but I will not hold my breath over it.
5: I hear a lot of people saying it was only a "small team" or they had nothing else to do. I would like to hear that from CIG before believing that. If that is the case I will happily concede this point, but just because you think this is the case does not make it true. If they had something else to do so we could get the game faster I would have much rather they worked on that. Or maybe this tech has let them streamline putting face animations in SQ42. I don't know, but I would like to.