Friday Feb 24th - The Hurricane - $175
- Thread starter Black Sunder
- Start date
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
It is fantastically annoying to me that CIG can't manage to be clear and consistent with the gun mounts for various ships. We really don't know for sure what the turret is. S5 sounds right if you subtract one for each step in number weapons, but they have been anything other than consistent since making hat the standard. Can you put a single S5 weapon in that turret, or two more S4s? Can you put 8 S3s on the ship?
ShakyWater
Vice Admiral
JackAvalon
Space Marshal
As Matt Sherman has explained in the past basically you use the following formula:
1: Find out the initial size of the turret itself (say Size 5)
2: Subtract 1 for adding a manned/unmanned turret portion (basically the seat for the dude or the electronics)
3: Subtract another 1 for the weapons themselves being gimballed on the turret.
So in this case with a size 5 turret mount it will end up with 2x S3 guns. Only problem is that the hurricane has a quad turret. This is new but my guess is that if they(CIG) want any continuity with their previous formula then my guess would be they are probably thinking subtract an additional 1 for making it a quad turret. So my guess is the turret mount total size for the Hurricane would be a size 6. In theory if there was a "flashfire" mount for it then it should be able to equip a single non gimballed S5 weapon.
(Based on previous info put out by Matt Sherman in Twitch chat on wtfosaurus stream. Completely possible that CIG is either using the aforementioned still, or revamping the "sizing" of turrets which will lead to more confusion later on. Finally, it's also possible that the Hurricane might be a special case. It was designed to bring in a lot of firepower.)
Edit 1: Added the word gimballed to step 3.
Edit 2: @BUTUZ corrected me on the flashfire mount. Adjusted to reflect single non-gimballed S5.
1: Find out the initial size of the turret itself (say Size 5)
2: Subtract 1 for adding a manned/unmanned turret portion (basically the seat for the dude or the electronics)
3: Subtract another 1 for the weapons themselves being gimballed on the turret.
So in this case with a size 5 turret mount it will end up with 2x S3 guns. Only problem is that the hurricane has a quad turret. This is new but my guess is that if they(CIG) want any continuity with their previous formula then my guess would be they are probably thinking subtract an additional 1 for making it a quad turret. So my guess is the turret mount total size for the Hurricane would be a size 6. In theory if there was a "flashfire" mount for it then it should be able to equip a single non gimballed S5 weapon.
(Based on previous info put out by Matt Sherman in Twitch chat on wtfosaurus stream. Completely possible that CIG is either using the aforementioned still, or revamping the "sizing" of turrets which will lead to more confusion later on. Finally, it's also possible that the Hurricane might be a special case. It was designed to bring in a lot of firepower.)
Edit 1: Added the word gimballed to step 3.
Edit 2: @BUTUZ corrected me on the flashfire mount. Adjusted to reflect single non-gimballed S5.
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FYI you lose a size when you mount a flashfire type mount so S6 with flashfire = S5 fixed weapon.
But yeh I agree be interesting to see what it is as the ship looks too small for a size6 mount.
Check this out. Apparently it's a S7 mount.
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vzv9e/the_hurricane_roberts_space_industries/de69u3r/#de69u3r
I eddited this a million times to try to get the parent and the subcomment to show. I give up. Just click on the link, theres a response from the Dev.
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vzv9e/the_hurricane_roberts_space_industries/de69u3r/#de69u3r
I eddited this a million times to try to get the parent and the subcomment to show. I give up. Just click on the link, theres a response from the Dev.
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I red the dev quote and some of the other concerns after. It looks like plenty of people have the valid concern that this trumps the vanguard. It is particularly applicable if the hurricane can mount a S6 or even an S5 fixed.
I hope that by the time the balancing is done, they add at least one more component to the balance equation. That's fuel. For instance, the vanguard will become much more valuable as a fighter if it is one of the only fighters that can actually deploy to a neighboring system without assistance.
Most ships have a quantum drive. However, I am hoping that fighters will be extremely limited by the distance they can travel unsupported. I also hope that fighters will need to be shipped or transported from one solar system to the next. Having a sabre with the ability to cross the known galaxy without help would just be silly.
I honestly think this will play a role in the future of the game. CIG has dropped hints about distance limiting before. It is also a sales feature in quite a few of the ships, the vanguard being one of them. The fact that it isn't a limiting factor right now, is due to how small the PU is compared to what the release version is going to be.
Imagine if you need to hitch a ride on a carrier or pay to have your Hurricane shipped to the deployment system. That changes everything. What if you needed to ride on a larger ship or pay for passage on a transport if you wanted to get from one end of the galaxy to the other? That would be huge. What if your friend gets into trouble and is floating out in space, but it takes you two hours on your connie to get there? I truly believe there is a strong possibility that it will end up that way.
There is so much left that hasn't shown up in the game yet. To say that it's to early to talk seriously about ship balance is a huge understatement. There are just too many features that we haven't seen yet.
Edit: It is worth noting though, that even the slightest chance to mount a S6 on this bad boy is one of the reasons I bought it. Can you imagine the carnage? ....aaaaaand boom goes the dynamite...
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I am a little worried about power creep (I mean the game is still in alpha for years).
The caterpillar has 2 turrets with 2 size 4s and the equivalent firepower is now on a 22m long fighter with missiles to boot. It seems this fighter will live or die on whether turrets ever work as intended. Its a shame as it seems like they where just looking for a way to make it expensive i.e. to raise more cash. It could easily have been in the 2 size 3 forward 4 size 2 in the turret without being bad. The cutlass black supposedly will have 6 size 3s 2 of which are in a turret and its huge relatively.
In the history this fighter got decommissioned presumably because it wasn't great and yet its been bought back?
The caterpillar has 2 turrets with 2 size 4s and the equivalent firepower is now on a 22m long fighter with missiles to boot. It seems this fighter will live or die on whether turrets ever work as intended. Its a shame as it seems like they where just looking for a way to make it expensive i.e. to raise more cash. It could easily have been in the 2 size 3 forward 4 size 2 in the turret without being bad. The cutlass black supposedly will have 6 size 3s 2 of which are in a turret and its huge relatively.
In the history this fighter got decommissioned presumably because it wasn't great and yet its been bought back?
Power creep has gone up quite a bit. I thought that S1 and S2 weapons were for fighters and S3 and S4 guns were for larger ships. Now we have S3 and S4 for fighters and S5s on our capital ships. Do we even need capital ships at this point? We could probably just wait for the next fighter with better guns at this rate.
The Vanguard concept was special with its S5. The other 6 guns on it were all S2, which are fighter weapons. That S5 is what made it hunt Void bombers. Now a lot of fighters have some impressive firepower. Hornet, buccaneer, and now the Hurricane all have access to S4 weapons. The Buccaneer is a tiny ship with poor power plant management. How does that ship even fire the guns with its low power? The Hurricane isn't any better for power management. At least the Super Hornet has a good size powerplant.
The Vanguard concept was special with its S5. The other 6 guns on it were all S2, which are fighter weapons. That S5 is what made it hunt Void bombers. Now a lot of fighters have some impressive firepower. Hornet, buccaneer, and now the Hurricane all have access to S4 weapons. The Buccaneer is a tiny ship with poor power plant management. How does that ship even fire the guns with its low power? The Hurricane isn't any better for power management. At least the Super Hornet has a good size powerplant.
JackAvalon
Space Marshal
I am worried about power creep a little as well but they can adjust things pretty easily. Here is my theory as to what CIG is thinking:
1: Due to the fact that ship weapons/components/pieces are capable of being shot off, they are increasing the ship weapon count on combat oriented ships so folks wont be forced to disengage if a weapon or two is removed. (Look at the 325A. That thing is a joke right now imo.)
2: They have yet to fully implement ship armor. From my understanding (i cant find the post where I heard this but i will try and find it later and link it), CIG will make armor more effective by not only adjusting straight values like damage reduction, armor material stats, etc., but will also be incorporating ballistics into the equation. What I mean by this is that depending on the weapon(size of the round), ammo type(energy, high explosive, armor piercing, etc.) velocity of the shot, and angle of impact; each shot will have varying results. This could mean that shots could literally ricochet off the hull if the angle of impact is too extreme or punch straight through the hull if the angle is correct, the round itself has a high enough mass and velocity, and the ammo type is correct
When armor is fully fleshed out and implemented along with weapons themselves being more complete, I have a feeling the ball game will change a bit. I think fights will basically end up being brawls for the most part. Look at the ship speed changes for a nod in this direction. CIG seems to want to slow combat down a bit. This means a higher average TTK. My hope is that ship combat and weapon damage will consist of a complex series of factors. I also want combat to take a bit so life pods can be used, people who are playing more non-combat roles have a chance at escaping, and those folks who are serious about the combat role will hopefully have a lot of decisions to make regarding loudouts and ship selection. I want meta builds to mostly go away. I want there to be a give and take with every decision that is made regarding combat. Hopefully this is what CIG is leaning towards so we can make combat be more than just equipping the meta build and learning to fly/aim.
Just my 2 cents. (more like tree fitty. this took a bit :).)
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
You can likewise run the formula in reverse. The current turret has 4, S3 weapons. Reducing them to 2 weapons should add a size, making them S4. Reducing to one weapon should add a size making it S5. Fixing the weapon should add a size, making it S6. Also they said originally there is a size difference between manned and unmanned turrets, so technically this is an S7 mount--bigger than what is on the Javelin, Idris and Bengal and bigger than any Vanduul weapon mount save all the spinal mounts, which are not technically mounts at all--they are part of the frame of the ship. But lets ignore all that and pretend the turret on the Hurricane is S6 instead of S7.
So they put an S6 mount on a fighter? Seems to me if they are going to do that, they need to upgrade the turrets on the Cutlass, Redeemer, Vanguard, Starfarer, Carrack, and Polaris.
This is why I can't stand the inconsistency. CIG seems to have no desire to abide by its own guidelines. How can a fighter have a bigger turret than on a Corvette?
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Good point on the gun sizes. Very good point.
The power management also adds another interesting aspect to the game. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out going forward.
I was waiting a long time for the Hurricane, but the hype isn't real for me. I wanted a "heavy fighter", but I think I'm stuck in the freelancer/privateer mindset, where heavy was just a more expensive, heavily armoured, heavily armed, less maneuverable, etc etc.
The Hurricane isn't really a heavy in my mind. I bought a few CCUs anyways, because ships, and options.
I still have to deal with the conundrum of what my second fighter will be. Something to compliment my Vanguard.
But what? Hurricane, Bucky, SH?
Why are ships so hard?
The Sabre and the SH are dominant in the arena. If you want, you can try out the Buccaneer and then just upgrade to another ship if you don't like it. I think that the Buccaneer is going to be worth trying out. Not a ship for beginners, but a fun one.
I once loved the Sabre and hated the SH. Now the reverse is true. I have a loaner SH to fly for the time being. She's fun.
I haven't yet tried my hand at a light fighter. Perhaps I should. I will keep my Bucky until she releases, see what she's like. I loved her at concept, I just pray I can hold onto that feeling, haha.
I have a Vanguard, a Sabre, a Super Hornet, and a Cutlass. I think that the Buccaneer is the perfect ship to fill that lower area where my Avenger used to sit. I just don't know if I'll be able to handle anything faster than the Sabre. I can't even push the limits of the Sabre, ha. But if it's a fun ship, I'll keep it. Otherwise, I'll just get another Super Hornet :D
I just want to keep my other hobbies in mind ... like IRS. I happen to like mixed gimbal and fixed setups, so the Buccaneer does well there too :P
I guess the real question is, which ships require you to be sober? Stay away from those. Pick ships that let you pilot with a beer on 1 hand.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
So you are flying the big chin gun on the Vanguard on the swivel? How is that working for you? I have long thought that would be key to overcoming the lack of maneuverability the true dog-fighters have.
I fly with a combine on the chin. I keep it locked until I go into a circle strafe. Then I unlock it so that I can pound away at fighters since the Vanguard has a terrible turn, especially in 2.6.1. I think it works better than sticking an S5 on the end since you can't even try to hit a Gladius with the S5 attached, but with a gimble you can. The only problem is that if you lose your S4 cannon, then you lose all circle strafe fights. At least a combine hits hard enough to kill the small nimble fighters.
On the Super Hornet, I run the chin turret, ball turret, and fixed guns on the wings. I end up with 2 bulldogs, 2 badgers, and 2 panthers, which isn't as much DPS as I could have it, but I like having that gimble option when I need it. M50s and the Gladius are hard to hit, so having those 4 smaller weapons rotate helps me take them out. I pretty much lock everything until I get locked in a circle strafe.
On my Sabre, I don't need gimbles, so I run all fixed :D
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I am curious what sorts of ranges you find you need the swivel gun. If they are very close, a pair of Pyros might work well, and then you have protection from incoming missiles, which seems a good way to kill Vanguard. I still have seen nothing of shooting down missiles with Pyros.
