well Ez, I could sit here and counter everything you say but it goes back to what I posted in the first place. How about this idea or how about this statistic falls on deaf ears. It's not like people don't care, we all just have different perspectives on the situation and it's not simple. Here, watch this clip from Joe Rogan. It's great and it explains what I first poster but in a much better way.
But do you really think that people in the States are more likely to be insane? If so, any idea why? And it's not like there are no crazy people outside the states.
But do you really think that people in the States are more likely to be insane? If so, any idea why? And it's not like there are no crazy people outside the states.
I honestly do. Our country is so big and spread out people can feel isolated. If you don't have a sense of community why should you give a shit about anyone but yourself. Everyone lives in their own little world and all they know they have to do is pay taxes and die. So much of the population Can't keep up with their jobs and rent is only getting higher. Most the people I know that are struggling financially have to give up their health insurance. So much of our population went to university because everyone told them that's how you become successful. They are getting out with no life experience, no work ethic, and still no skills (yes even after going to university) and no ones hiring them and they feel cheated. Talking with teachers, the students have over the decades gotten more violent and less compassionate. Social media has turned our kids into fucking zombies. That 2.5 million incarceration count should tell you something about the quality of some areas of our country, those were the ones that got caught and didn't die. Our criminals have to overcome the fear that the person they are shooting at isn't also armed and willing to shoot back, so think about the level of violence that person is willing to endure to commit the crime. There are more guns in this country than there are US citizens. We have 350,000,000 ish people in this country and I swear to you all the crazy ones live in Florida ;) . It's peoples living conditions, their lack of community and purpose, the constant stress the media has put the nation in since the election campaign season started back in 2016 and a whole bunch of other stuff. I can't objectively explain why but these are just some things I can think of off the top of my head.
Why wouldn't it be about stopping violence? Isn't that the point? The death of a beating victim is no less tragic than one in a mass shooting. Mass shootings actually are an extremely small percentage of violent deaths. They're just as tragic, but why focus on them and ignore all the other violent deaths in the solution?
That would mean, only in the USA are crazy people. Or way way more crazy people than in any other part of the world. But that's not the case. So why are there more mass-shootings in the US? The only significant difference are the gun-laws to my knowledge.
It doesn't matter how many crazy people there are in the US vs. the rest of the world. It only takes one person for a shooting. That being said though, we went through the "deinstitutionalization" process where we let most of our crazy people out of the assylums. We now house only an extremely small percentage of our "crazies". The rest are out on the streets and in our communities completely unsupervised.
So yea, we have a ton of people on the streets that should be supervised and aren't. The threat of violence and the proof of mental stability isn't enough to place them in an institution. They literally have to attempt an act to be placed in care.
I agree that the gun itself is not the reason for the action, but if you don't have another solution to make the situation better and the alternative is that there will be many more mass shootings and many many more victims, many of those children, than wouldn't you want to make a change?
There are plenty of solutions out there. Most have been discussed extensively. Is taking guns a possible solution? Yes. It would probably have a positive change on the criminal use of firearms. However, I honestly think it is addressing a symptom and not the problem. I also think it is a knee jerk solution that isn't based on balanced information.
The media and news sources love to report these mass shootings because they are "sensational". They then post up statistics like "the 18th school shooting in the US this year". What they don't say is that some of those shootings wouldn't be included by a logical person in that amount. Like the very first one they claim as a "school shooting" in 2018. It was a man, in a car, who called 911 and said he was armed and suicidal. He then committed suicide. He was on school property so it was a "school shooting". They conveniently left out the fact that the school had been closed for 7 months....
They also leave other statistics out. For instance, the statistics in the 2013 CDC study on gun violence that Obama ordered. Yea, nobody really hears about that one. It never made the media. It was never widely spread because the information didn't fit the narrative. There were things like 300,000 instances of illegal gun use per year. Whereas defensive gun use was placed at somewhere between 500,000 and 3,000,000 per year.
All I am saying is look at the problem, not the symptom. Then, when crafting a solution, base it on the real problem, use real information, and choose something that won't have far more negative results than positive.
Why wouldn't it be about stopping violence? Isn't that the point? The death of a beating victim is no less tragic than one in a mass shooting. Mass shootings actually are an extremely small percentage of violent deaths. They're just as tragic, but why focus on them and ignore all the other violent deaths in the solution?
Sure all death are bad, if one could stop ALL violence in the world, cool, lets do it. But can we? nope. So lets take more specific problems. Like school-shootings. Why not find a solution for that before why try to find a solution for everything. I don't really know what you were trying to proof with that point. Also with a gun you can cause more damage and victims than with a knife. So why not start with the worst?
"It only takes one person with a gun for a shooting". A crazy person without a gun can't start a school shooting.
If there are SO many crazy and insane people in america, why don't you want to make it harder for those people to get a gun. I am not talking about a total 100% ban. I am talking about strict and hard gun-laws. Make it harder to get a gun. Don't gibe people guns who are for example on the FBI-Watchlist .. just an idea ..
Not sure how this is out of context tbh. You compared crazy dangerous people with a dog that is attacking you. I mentioned giving the dog a gun, meaning giving said crazy dangerous person a gun. What I am trying to say is that you make those people even more dangerous by giving them the opportunity of getting a gun.
If that is your opinion fair enough. But I mentioned it because you compared the situation to drug addicts and that they also get drugs even though it is illegal. And what I was trying to get at is that drugs are illegal for a reason even though addicts will get drugs somewhere. So by that logic if you don't ban guns because crazy people will still do those things, there is no reason to ban drugs since addicts will still get drugs (in my opinion notalldrugs should be legal).
The media and news sources love to report these mass shootings because they are "sensational". They then post up statistics like "the 18th school shooting in the US this year". What they don't say is that some of those shootings wouldn't be included by a logical person in that amount.
I know you did not mean the statistics I posted earlier but still, some numbers don't lie:
And even if its not 18 school shootings. Isn't one enough? Why is it important that the media adds a few to make a point. There are too many, for a fact, or would anyone argue that? So as long as there are any school shootings or mass shootings in general wouldn't that be enough to want change?
There are plenty of solutions out there. Most have been discussed extensively. Is taking guns a possible solution? Yes. It would probably have a positive change on the criminal use of firearms. However, I honestly think it is addressing a symptom and not the problem. I also think it is a knee jerk solution that isn't based on balanced information.
Yes it is clearly not the perfect solution and is not getting rid of the core problem itself, but if you can't get rid of the core problem, does that mean you shouldn't do anything at all? What is happening so those shootings don't happen again? For me it looks like ... nothing? And that should infuriate each and everyone because as long as nothing is done more and more children will lose their lives. So there has to be change. And as long as we don't have a solution for the core problem, and it does not seem like we are close to a solution, America should change something to make it safer. And again .. I really can't imagine that there are so many more crazy people running around in the states. The reasons Jolly mentioned make sense, but not in a case of a kid starting a mass-shooting. Jobs, rent etc. does that really affect a kid in that age to such a degree? What would the kid have done without a gun? Probably not kill so many innocent.
So many of you act like america is this wild west with so god damn many dangers everywhere. Maybe .. guns a a reason for that .. police shootings for example .. if the US cops wouldn't have to worry about people having guns most situations would be handled totally different.
You are very fair, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think inadvertently you have hit the nail on the head here: Opinion.
Please answer my following (provocative) question: What do you think of Nikolas Cruz opinion to go into a school and kill a bunch of kids between the ages of 14 and 18 years old and their teachers? He was entitled to his opinion? My assumption was he thought he'd been treated unfairly by the school.
Now let me answer my own question with another question: Was he entitled to his actions? No. He was not. No mass shooter is. Not even non-mass 'shooters' who kill or injure just one person are justified to their actions.
Yes, we can say "Don't force your opinion on me" to either side of the debate and that is perfectly acceptable, however that denies the fact that there are people with free access to ranged weapons who are forcing their opinion on a nation of 300 million people at the barrel of their guns. Until yesterday you didn't know Nikolas Cruz. You didn't know he was expelled and you didn't know his opinion about it.
Well you know his opinion now because he has well and truly forced it upon everyone by taking the lives of 14 children, he forced his opinion so hard on you it has been reported in another country 3000 miles away where I now get to have my opinion too.
When gun owners stop forcing their opinion on others with chunks of metal that travel 350ft a second, I'll happily reappraise my opinion that something should probably be done about it.
From the points raised in this thread that it is not Guns, it is people, it is still my opinion that America should be the first country with Public Protection Automated Turrets. My reasons are listed in the previous posts in this thread.
So... the Republicans were concerned about mental health issues and gun accessibility to those known to have mental health issues when the Republican President repealed the law that stopped people with known mental issues buying and owning guns...?
"It only takes one person with a gun for a shooting". A crazy person without a gun can't start a school shooting.
If there are SO many crazy and insane people in america, why don't you want to make it harder for those people to get a gun. I am not talking about a total 100% ban. I am talking about strict and hard gun-laws. Make it harder to get a gun. Don't gibe people guns who are for example on the FBI-Watchlist .. just an idea ..
We're not entirely on different pages. That's the thing with this argument. It attempts to polarize and divide people. What you propose isn't very different from what I would propose. I had a friend that can no longer legally purchase firearms in the US. His rights were revoked because he smoked some marijuana while actively enlisted in the military. That ended up with a "dishonerable discharge" from the military which is treated like a felony criminal charge. He can no longer legally own or purchase a firearm in the US. I have another friend that drove the car when his friends stole a case of beer. They accidentally broke a window and the total damages were over $500. He didn't rat on his 3 friends and ended up with a felony charge. He also can't legally buy or own a gun even though he was 18 and it was over 20 years ago.
Alternatively, every single diagnosed schizophrenic with no prior criminal convictions in the US can 100% pass the checks and walk out of the store with a gun. If you have ever met or known a schizophrenic, you would understand how ridiculous this is. If they are ever off their meds, even for a day, everything we expect out of logic, reason, morals, ethics, go right out the window. I think the US needs to reevaluate their mental health policies. This includes gun purchasing rights.
The guy that just shot up florida? He heard voices from "demons". His parents sought counseling for him. He was obviously not fucking right in the head. Our current mental health system says "feed them some pills and kick them out". There is nothing else to the system. There is nothing that says "this mental guy should be watched" or "maybe this guy shouldn't own a gun... or powder... or be allowed to wander free without meds". There should be an entire library surrounding the rules and laws for that. But there isn't. They're out on our streets like everyone else.
I truly believe that this is the deciding factor. Don't take my guns away. I follow the laws. I am mentally balanced(ish). I have been trained in the use of firearms. I use them to protect and not destroy. Take them away from criminals. Take them away from those that are dangerous due to diagnosed disorders. Make rules that address the problem, and not the symptom.
You kind of just made my point. That graph you posted is a prime example. If you look at vetted sources, you see that the US is actually #46 in firearm deaths per capita. Even by your own statistic (firearm homicide rates) the US is 18th in the list of countries (also per capita). Just look Here on wikipedia.
That's the thing. There ARE dangers everywhere. Just look at the sex offender map for any city. It lights up like a christmas tree. We have literally millions of mentally unstable people wandering around the streets. We have huge gang problems. We have massive theft, robbery, burglary and assault issues.
Now couple that with the fact that for me, police response time is anywhere between 5-45 minutes. At the very best possible scenario of 5 minutes, I am dead. If my house gets broken into (which happens several times per day in my town), I don't want to sit there and duke it out. If someone breaks in, they are fully awake, prepared, and ready. I am half asleep and disoriented. There is a famous american quote. "God made man, Sam Colt made them equal."
Maybe .. guns a a reason for that .. police shootings for example .. if the US cops wouldn't have to worry about people having guns most situations would be handled totally different.
Funny that. EVERY cop I have ever talked to in any state has one thing in common. They all would prefer that every single law abiding citizen carried a concealed firearm at all times. This isn't just a few cops either. Due to my degree in criminal justice and my previous job experiences, I am talking about well over 50 police officers over 3 different states, all representing the general theme of their department.
Just to reappraise as we have entered a bit of a loop here:
Earlier in the thread we came to the conclusion that culturally and with the suffusion of guns already in America, we are not going to accomplish what Australia did and Ban Guns.
No one is talking about that anymore, we've all come to the conclusion that the USA is just going to be a gun country like a Hedgehog is a prickly animal. They are there. Nothing can be done about that.
However what can be done are registers detailing who has what and making it necessary to update that register when a gun changes hands or has been lost, stolen or broken. Licenses to make sure everyone has had adequate safety training. An Atrocity Tax of $1 on every bullet sold so that those injured or the families of those killed are looked after without them being bankrupt for no other reason that they were a victim of a shooting. Automated turrets as a final act to remove the People from the Guns, to let Guns watch over us, to let Guns protect us as it is not Guns that hurt people, it is people who hurt people.
In Gun We Trust.
No one is talking about taking guns away from Americans. We are talking about taking guns away from Americans who want to shoot other Americans.
@Bruttle I think we are at a point where it would just be a loop going on and noones opinion would change (and that's totally fine ) but one thing I would like to add about the numbers I posted, look at the countries left out with higher numbers or numbers as high as the US .. Venezuela, Guatemala, Panama, Swaziland.. are those the countries you want to compare your numbers to? Comparing them to EU makes more sense IMO at least.
Sorry man but it's not like we make you read it. If you don't want to talk politics and just want to have a good time gaming that's perfect, 99% of the forum is about that and most discord channels are politics free. So why not allow us to talk about something serious as long as we keep it civilized ;) (And I don't see anyone flaming)
Just ignore the thread if you don't want to talk about it. As Ezz said no one is forcing you to read it and no one is cursing at each other. I feel no ill will to anyone in here that has the same or different opinion than me and I would like to hear everyone's opinion if they want to share in a civilized manner. If it gets out of hand I would assume Seung,Montoya or other staff will come bitch smack us real quick.
This debate is befuddling. It's why I think it's pointless because I don't think anyones minds are being changed here. Take your concerns to your elected officials or else nothing will change. Even if you do take your concerns to your elected officials and they fall on deaf ears, you can at least know you did the one thing that has a chance of changing the world you live in.
@NaffNaffBobFace what happens when you take the guns away from good people? Do you think criminals would not get guns either? What about psychos that dont use guns... they use trucks, cars, knives, swords, explosives, and a million different other things to cause pain on their homo sapien brothers and sisters. Seem like the dilemma is not with the guns or any thing else that people can do harm. The common denominator is bad/evil people who are predisposed to harming others. If people disappeared the problem would be solved? My advice, stop blaming the tools and look at people/society.
I really did not want to post on this, I come to this group to have fun, but I feel the need to explain my, and every human's right to defend themselves.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
This is the backbone what it means to be human, you have rights, not given by man or government, and as such man or government will and can not take them away. This includes my right to my life, meaning if I feel threated I have a RIGHT, not given by any man, to defend myself. This right is later affirmed to me, a U.S. citizen, in the second amendment, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." meaning I have the right to hold tools of self-defense. If you believe I should trust the government to protect me let me remind you that the cops were called to this guys house 39 times, the FBI got a strong tip that he was going to be a school shooter, both did nothing to stop this. In addition, the big story last year was that cops are "racist, bigots, and evil" so I should trust the evil people to protect me? your native is falling apart if you believe that. Also in 1990 the "Gun-Free School Zones Act" was made law, go look at how many gun shootings happened before and after that act. This act strips people of their basic right to life, and I find it ironic, we protect our politicians, celebrities, and anyone of import with guns, but our children with a sign. And that does not even go into the realm of our right, and duty, to defend against a tyrannical government, from 2008 to 2016 the right was saying Obama was the worst thing ever and taking our right away, now the left is calling Trump "Literally Hitler" and these are the people you want taking my HUMAN rights away? ya because government gun control has always gone so great! if you don't know how great ask the Jewish people after Hitler took their guns or the Russians after Stalin took theirs, or the Chinese, or Turkey, or Cuba, or even Venezuela, where they can't get enough food to eat. Me and my fellow gun owners and the greatest deterrent from all people abusing their power. If that be a mass shooter (see the Texas church shooter from last year who was stopped by an NRA instructor with a gun), or an evil person in power. This is my right to defend myself, and it is not given by the government, and cannot be taken by them or anyone. END OF STORY.
As I said before, I work in an ER. I had a teacher go crazy and stab a student with scissors and another choke a student until he went into a coma. What would of happen if those types of people snapped and had a gun? Should we arm all the children with guns just in case the teacher goes crazy? teachers,police,nurses,doctors,religious preachers, soldiers and politicians are always not the stand up good people we would like to believe they always are. Hopefully if we arm those teachers though they don't have a bad day or experience any sort of depression for the rest of their career.
Everyone on here that is supporting guns are the people I don't have a problem with at all, its the 10-15% that have a mental illness or not right in the head that they would rent a hotel room and spray a crowd of people or plan out a tactical assault on a elementary school. As a society we're only as good as our weakest link and we have to make sacrifices like we have and still do today.
