Qualifying for Positions

NaffNaffBobFace

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With 19k+ TESTies, just zerg rush 'em. Alone we are but drops of water, but together we form a MIGHTY torrent!
So look, Harry buys a Polaris. He needs an EM warfare/scan guy, a navigator, a couple engineers, half dozen turret gunners, a really sharpshooting gunner for the chin mount and missile launchers, and a Master Sargent to lead a couple other PCs each leading small teams of marines. About a dozen guys, presuming the marines are NPCs. The captain of that ship knows he's not going to get the same dozen guys every time he has available, so he'll be drawing from some sort of lists of who can do those jobs. If he can't organize that kind of small group regularly, he won't be playing his game regularly. He'll throw up his hands and go solo mining. This problem grows exponentially with growth in ship/crew size.
Looking at the example of Lieutenant Harry and the Org which is TEST, I think it would depend on what criteria Harry puts on entry to his ship. It's Harrys ride and Harrys rules, what plays on his stereo is his choice.

So it's finding something most players have been able to do and potentially prove without making it Drill Sargent Simulator (unless some players in test want to play like that as I say Harrys ride Harrys rules yo). Accreditation sort of goes against the grain of TEST "your game your play" spirit in that the number of people wanting to join the digital version of the "No Homers Club" may be a bit small ( 😜 ), however I have a thought:

The one thing almost all of us will be doing in regard to SC is playing s42. We've backed the BDSSE why would we not play the single player mode?

So:

Harry wants people who have been though some expiriance, and what is s42 if not a standardized expiriance of life in the 'Verse? It may not be able to pinpoint a sharp-shooter but being able to recruit a crew who have completed s42 on Hard mode is going to result in a "better" more survivable crew than a crew who have only passed it on "Easy" mode or not completed single player at all...

If there is a requirement for accreditation for some captains, I'd think that would be a way to do it without getting our spreadsheets out and hazing people by pushing them down a hill on microtech in the Locker From Another Universe.. It is using something we will all be playing anyway, and encourages those who are into pew pew to go further than Easy mode and get some replayability out of it.

I think that's as close to win-win as Harry is going to get while having a standardized set of grading criteria...? Plus you'd be able to prove it with Spectrum badges which you know they'll hand out for being able to complete s42 on a given setting.

Playing s42 could be TESTs version of National Service. You don't play s42 you are a Cadet. You play but don't complete you are a Lieutenant. You pass Easy you are a Captain. You pass Medium you are a Major. You pass Hard you are a Brigadier... That also lets players coming to Harrys ship know what they are getting in to. He wants a crew of Majors but is a Lieutenant? Don't let the door hit you on your way out Harry, unless you have the UEC to make it worth my time on your tub you miserable little maggot?!

Seems like the logical way forward for competency and standardization... any specialist requirements can either be then tested for, or there might be sharp-shooter badges to earn in s42 which can then be used to prove a level of competence in a certain skill for the PU?

That is, if Harry wants that to be the entry requirement to his ship. The entry requirement to mine will be a six-pack and foot long hot-dog sacrifice to Montoya :like:
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Those are all great ideas. Wait to pen them until Montoya decides its worth his time.

The simpler the better. My experience with Ailon Nova Guard and The Wraiths in SWC was that it's easy to get people to design programs and hard to get them to run them. Fortunately, brilliant players will oftimes decide it's worth their time and write copious amounts that can pretty quickly be turned into training manuals. The Wraiths had dozens of training manuals, all of which were just brilliant.

What Han was writing about turret gunners was awesome. I certainly could not have done that, and it says to me I need his kind of training. I would add just the notion that somewhere near Tier 2, there could be a "Marksman" qualification. Somehow, you want to know who is way better at hitting the target than average (using a mouse?) and will make your chin gun count. No frowns on the mouse guy if he's busy killing Vanduul scum for you. Captains should pay more for that kind of rare skill.

I dunno how many people saw the vid in the RSP thread in General, but that guy understands how complex scanning is going to be. I have said it before and I'll say it again, the search/scan/ping/scramble functions coming in game are going to be VERY complicated. EM is complicated. The sensor station on a cap ship could easily become the most complex and powerful station of any type in game. Just committing to memory what size ship will show up at what range from any given sensor array is going to be tough, and we're going to be able to tweak our sensors with perishable items to maximize certain aspects of them. It's almost too much to know. If you're flying a cap ship, you absolutely need a real specialist or three on sensors, and we should start to learn how to train specialists starting in 3.14. Not long away.

Also, I really liked Han's notion of badges in Discord. You can imagine characters with sashes that display their achievements during dinner parties. It works both ways. It not only tells Captains who to hire, but it tells players what Captains they want to crew for. Crews will have choices, and not too many people will want to sign up for Captains who don't have any proficiencies they're trying to hire, while the best players will gravitate toward the most educated and experienced Captains.
 

vahadar

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I am putting my 2 cents here.

Training is needed and this is the purpose of our weekly CFT (combat flight training) and TSMC (test marines), and I invite everyone here to participate and join those CFT/TSMC.

This is firstly about mastering the game controls of your ship/vehicle, and about tactics (formation, fight planning and so on). This is not academic style, or ideas put on paper, but this is rather all about test and practice style, and the need to adapt each time we fight opponents that are not Testies that force us to review our tactics (and it happened quite a few times the past months). So "standardisation" might be problematic here because we evolve almost each CFT.

While "certification" is an idea that needs to be shaped, i prefer to fight with people I know that do attend trainings, because I know how they work both individually and when in a team. When you do not know your teammates it is harder to fight in synergy, and no certification will replace that.

Just regular practice and to be ready to adapt a lot.
 

vahadar

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Also, as an individual you might not be a great pilot or fighter. But in a group that does not matter a lot, simply because a small action on your part might help the group a lot.

The key is survival and combat awareness, it gives time for the group to do whatever is needed to be done. If you survive a few more seconds than usually and understand what is going on around you, that gives precious time for your wingmen to achieve something like score a torpedo hit, focus on a target while you were drawing fire away and so on...

And this is also one of the mantra of @marcsand2 when he leads CFT and a great one.

Regular training is also important because it allows our commanders to spot people able to lead on the element level or wing level or flight level. Knowing your team mates allows our commanders/instructors to see who has combat awareness and gives responsibility to them to lead others regular or combat aces or less skilled pilots but still very useful pilots when in a group.
And it is done a great way. Element or wings commanders are regularly changed so that new people can practice leading during our combat session.

So in short regular training has 2 objectives : improvement on the individual level (personnal skills...), and on the group level (coordination and communication, combat awareness in group fighting, formations leading...).
 
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Shadow Reaper

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That's all full of awesome. What does TSMC stand for, and how often do you and they train? Are the TSMC and YellowJackets the same group?

What lessons learned can we apply to the Navy--those cap ships needing large crews? Do you think the need to train together transfers to training on the bridge and turrets of something like the 890, in place of the Polaris, Idris, Javelin etc. since those ships are not yet in game? Have you done any joint ops between Jump crews and fighters?

Any lessons learned to share with future Tonk crews?
 

vahadar

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TSMC is the Test marine corps. They train every Sunday. It is FPS focused with many scenarios.

CFT (combat flight training) is happening every Saturday. CFT is focusing on group fighting with ships or ship boardings, with many scenarios.

Dogfight Training is also happening every Sunday evening. It is focusing solely on dogfight one Vs one (atmosphere or space).

For all those events, check Guilded calendar for your local time.

@Chromeninja is your man for the TSMC/CFT questions.
And @marcsand2 for all CFT/dogfight training questions.

And about your question
What lessons learned can we apply to the Navy--those cap ships needing large crews? Do you think the need to train together transfers to training on the bridge and turrets of something like the 890, in place of the Polaris, Idris, Javelin etc. since those ships are not yet in game? Have you done any joint ops between Jump crews and fighters?
The main lesson imho learned with big crew ships (hammerhead, carrack, 890) is communication. Just on a larger scale than squadron fighting.

The need to train together does transfer to big ships yes.
For example a turret gunner is not only a tool pressing a trigger, it is more eyes for the ship and for the escort around the ship.
The gunner can direct the ship commander, when it is not the commander giving targets orders, and the gunner can warn other wingmen about ennemy on their tail or keeping distance to the main ship so they stay in turret range, and so on...
So it is not all about the commander of a ship to have exclusive combat awareness, everyone onboard and around the ship must have this awareness and communicate when needed. This is only achieved throught group training.

Your ship commander needs your eyes as a gunner. A wing commander needs every ship/gunner eyes within its wing, and a fleet commander needs everyone eyes and awareness and proper and disciplined communications.

And yes we do regular ops with big ships and escort like with hammerhead or 890. And again I think beside combat skills training, the big focus is to train communication there, that is the key to everything else (group fighting, formations tactics...). And having fun of course 🍻

This applies to any crewed ship/vehicle I guess, so tonk included.
 
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vahadar

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Also another important thing with training beside communication is building synergy.

When everyone within a team knows how their teammates fight, when everyone has combat awareness, you will see more instincts actions and less communication, almost down to the bare needed minimum to be effective.
 
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vahadar

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Have you been devloping specializd vernacular in order to communicate better? Has anyone been writing training manuals?
Yep there is vernacular and basic guides but they are not publicly disclosed.

You can ping @marcsand2 to get them.
 

Mich Angel

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I'll put it as sweet as I can....

TEST is not a Elite group we're above Elite.. so we don't need a list or qualifying, we are the masters of beer drinking so we all top of as No:1 on the list.

But serious, get in to spirit of TEST is wing it and hope for the best, sure we and some like to practice to keep the A game up and good for us/them if we/they having fun doing so.

TEST is about having fun playing game together, a list of elite or so shown by a list only portray those who bother get on the list and as such as some said the list don't tell the truth.

A list like this only segregate the game players and it fall way out of TEST spirit have fun crash spectacular and be okay with it, as at the same be the top dog of your game and be good with that.

Accepting your fellow TEST players skill regardless if that someone happen to be the best fireball crasher and screwup or the guy that is expert of everything he does.

This is the TEST spirit... WE are one! We love beer! In TEST any playstyle regardless of skill is welcome!

So your a screwup we love you anyway and heck if this mission get screwed up cause you or anyone fuckup, well we might succeed next time no hard feelings it's okay to not be good.

It's a game and it'll be good to remember that and the amount of players and player skill we have in TEST vary a lot and that should not be a problem.

If then it is, then the problem is elsewhere then with the players.


CHEERS! 🍻 🍻 🍻 🍻 🍻 🍻 🍻
 
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vahadar

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TEST is about having fun playing game together, a list of elite or so shown by a list only portray those who bother get on the list and as such as some said the list don't tell the truth.

A list like this only segregate the game players and it fall way out of TEST spirit have fun crash spectacular and be okay with it, as at the same be the top dog of your game and be good with that.

Accepting your fellow TEST players skill regardless if that someone happen to be the best fireball crasher and screwup or the guy that is expert of everything he does.
Very well said @Mich Angel

You don't need to be a Yellow jacket or a marine to attend any combat events. Actually those are just very informal groups. Everyone is welcomed.

Nobody will judge your skills, we are mainly here to have fun and to practice combat, like others have fun doing mining ops and so on. You will get a lot of tips and help if your goal is to improve,or you can be a helper if you are already experienced.

While we have obviously some aces around, you know those ppl are aces just by playing with them, there is no ace tag to identify them. And an ace does not mean it is also a commanding officer.
Everyone is treated on the same level, with some training in addition to lead others, only because the people in charge of the combat events are trying to rotate leadership in group fights.

The top leadership consist of people that do their best to organise regular events and are recognised as such.

This is not certification, but being recognised as an ensign or lieutenant is a show of skills somewhat, this does not mean you are an ace but you know the drill and are able to lead others and have the trust and respect of everyone.
 
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Gambit

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I formally, informally and happily agree with @Mich Angel and @vahadar.

Firstly, regularity is key to anything you wish to be good. I say this being a 36 years old imigrant ex-psychologist acting now as an intern at a new coding career. If you repeat and don't give up, you get better with every single mistake... mistakes are required for growing.

Secondly, - - fun - -. If you are having fun at any kind of level, your repetitions are easier to keep going. And since fun is subjective, TEST is a pretty good solution for this because you can find all types of people and activities & people here in the forum, guilded, discord, youtube... Star Citizen! I actually want / should participate more in the trainning sessions, but I have been kind of burned out with SC.

But Redeemer gives me strength.

Also, the truckload of ships @Stevetank kindly offered for learning all the ropes (I mean, all the ships are there lol) is the kind of spirit that fuels the afforementioned points by you all.
 

vahadar

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I qualify for that! And I can drive a Tonk just fine thank you! Well, backwards ....
You mean driving backwards... by just sitting still and thanks to recoil from continuously firing? I can do that too 😅
 

vahadar

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Well, I have never suggested making any training mandatory, and I'm not even sure we need to be graded. Grading is a very complex subject not undertaken lightly. We shouldn't pass over it simply to avoid all unplesantries. I may well be there are some skills easy to grade and some that are impossible, or some that hold consequencs that requires some sort of grading and others not. It's a complex issue. I do think we already have a couple or three different kinds of training, and awarding players who have put in the time with a certification may be all we can do. Past that, word of mouth and experience should help people figure out who to contact when Fred can't make Saturday night at the turret.

Anyone interested should contact Montoya. In the meantime, spitballing here may have benefits. First off what kind of list of skills might we make so the powers that be (nothing is happening without Montoya behind it) can search for field experts, and can anyone describe the successes at the fighter school? That is really the pioneering effort along these lines so far as I am aware.
Okay, you've got me convinced. My suggestion would lie along the line of maybe different level certs that signify that you've undergone the corresponding training(Feather in cap vs 'I'm the bestest there ever was!'). Like tier 0 would be akin to no cert, just an informative session to learn how everything works. Tier 1 would be learning some of the finer points of your role (tips/tricks to be more efficient). Then Tier 2 could be a more involved training that highlights more of the big-picture command type stuff for that subject and so on.

For example; Turrets

Tier 0
Participants will learn how to power their turret, change gimbal modes, cycle targets, and understand what overheating is (Done in a fun "target practice" sort of fashion)

Tier 1
Learning different firing modes, different tactics/methods for target tracking/destruction, complying with firing orders and command direction, active power & heat management, and comms etiquette (Done in an Arena Commander sim session)

Tier 2
Learning the philosophy behind weapon choices, learn large vessel turret fire coordination, battlefield IQ and recognizing developing risks/opportunities, airframe identification and the corresponding tactical knowledge to adapt to their presence, defensive triage, cross-unit coordination, ect. (This one lives more in the classroom)

Tier 3
Command group. You are now actively reviewing training courses and designing new material. You are also interfacing with the Yellowjackets and others with in-verse experience to develop cross-company exercises and training events. It will be your job to oil the gears of our war machine with the blood of our enemies and assure that we always have new horrors to unleash upon them. (This is where the rubber meets the road and you are actively shaping our live combat strategies)
Thinking of this (because i made a digression with my posts about training above and derailed the subject a bit), there is a vague similar rank system based on "skills" within our CFT training sessions.

This consist of 4 ranks from fresh first timer pilot up to flight commander (iirc it was 5 before and separated in tiers before marcsand2 reviewed the flight structure). It is just used now to allow event organizer to prepare the training session according to the roaster of ppl participating.

It is not a "public" rank but something that event organizer (marcsand2) attribute to attenders once they have showed regularly and battle tested them.
From the rank list :
- Sitting duck (first timer)
- Wingman (you know what is expected from you)
- Element lead (you call the shot in your element. An element consist of one lead and one or more wingmen)
- Flight lead (you command your flight).

As you see it is vaguely based on the command structure of the YellowJackets. Very basic, but enough because each level implies a better understanding of fighting and general communication.

I do not know if our miners have some similar roles according to experience, but this could be easily used for any style of gameplay.

The thing is that if we try to go into the details of skills and proficiencies of each one of us, to be able to pick players from a list when you want to get some slots filled for your ship or your operation, it will be quickly too complex, and a burden to manage.

So if we will ever going to apply this to the entire org, it should be kept simple, and should speak by itself. But i am not too convinced by that still.

You generally get to know how people play just by playing with them, and you tend to play with people you like (regardless of their skills). That is what Imperium did, they allowed players within their org to create a myriad of smaller units consisting of a few players, like tiny orgs within an org. They updated the system at the end of last year, and until now, only a few units converted to the new club system (which means most ppl in Imperium are currently inactive and not following SC). So instead of the hundreds of units they had before, it is a few dozens now.


 
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Shadow Reaper

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The thing is that if we try to go into the details of skills and proficiencies of each one of us, to be able to pick players from a list when you want to get some slots filled for your ship or your operation, it will be quickly too complex, and a burden to manage.
I get that, but pilots all play one role--they're pilots. They have many skills they bring to bare but they're always in the piloting role. That's not true of cap ship crew nor even Tonk crew.

There needs to be a real mechanism to pass down information and training to people playing these new roles as they emerge. Those who think any amount of effort to be good at a role is too much effort for that to be fun, don't need to qualify for positions. It's voluntary. These may still end up in positions on ships which they are essentially unqualified for, but it's all a game and if you get blowed up, so what?

What I do not want to hear from those who have no interest in learning the right way to do a job, is that it is somehow wrong for others to play their game their way. That is not what TEST is about. TEST is about letting everyone play their game their way. Its fine to not want training. It is not fine to say others shouldn't have that option.
 

Stevetank

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I formally, informally and happily agree with @Mich Angel and @vahadar.

Firstly, regularity is key to anything you wish to be good. I say this being a 36 years old imigrant ex-psychologist acting now as an intern at a new coding career. If you repeat and don't give up, you get better with every single mistake... mistakes are required for growing.

Secondly, - - fun - -. If you are having fun at any kind of level, your repetitions are easier to keep going. And since fun is subjective, TEST is a pretty good solution for this because you can find all types of people and activities & people here in the forum, guilded, discord, youtube... Star Citizen! I actually want / should participate more in the trainning sessions, but I have been kind of burned out with SC.

But Redeemer gives me strength.

Also, the truckload of ships @Stevetank kindly offered for learning all the ropes (I mean, all the ships are there lol) is the kind of spirit that fuels the afforementioned points by you all.
I used to hang out in the noob area in GW2 and just train people I met on doing dungeons and quick leveling. I used to be able to go from lvl 1 to 80 in 24 hours. I had quite a few lvl 80 characters, 3 were engineers. Training is just what I do.
 

BUTUZ

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This is an impressive thread. I can't but help think you guys are over thinking things. Us testies, we keep things simple, we crack a beer, just double click the RSI Launcher, click launch game, and have fun!

//eof
 

Randson

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Reading this thread, I cant help but be reminded about [the Org that shall not be named] making people take tests in order to use their own ship and be part of the org events. I know thats not whats being suggested, but its what comes to mind. IMHO, Koalafications are great and all, but just sending people through a crash course on the basics and optional training from there on seems to be the best way to go about things.
 

Chromeninja

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That was a lot of words to read :D

Thanks for the tag @vahadar

TEST is a place for everyone, like most of you have said, or events vary from SUPER informal to slightly structured.

The CFT and TSMC events have structure, but that is only to map out gameplay loops that do not currently exist, such as defending a downed ship or attacking a manned outpost.

The structure is something @marcsand2, and I add to make an event flow rather than force people to fall in line.

Whenever we plan a structured event, we look forward to seeing the creativity of TESTies to see how they can accomplish the goals we set.
 
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