So, 3.0 live release just bumped to September...

Richard Bong

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I read it. You don't announce a release date and miss it. Not by months. You don't delay a release of an alpha or beta to polish the UI or to add more features. You don't announce a major convention and show up empty handed.

Your excuse for this is they are amateurs and treat this as a hobby, not a job? Then it will never be a AAA title, and they will get bored with it long before release.

The company that I ran QA for did 3D software, very successfully, not games, though they now do game content as well. We have gone to numerous conventions, and never went to any empty handed.
 

Bomer Fett

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Oh well. I've got plenty to do in Osiris and Hellion. 3.0 will get here when it gets here. Delays like this should be expected. They happen all the time in all games. We just don't normally know about it because they don't let us in on the building process.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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I read it. You don't announce a release date and miss it.
Please reread the part of point 2 where it says: "You will see the same estimates we use in our internal planning, but it is important to understand that in many cases (especially with groundbreaking engineering tasks) these estimates are often subject to change due to unforeseen complexity" - it was not a release date and never has been.

As you have run software QA i'm sure you are aware as to the importance of internal production schedules for the coordination of all departments, the fact that the dates on them can and do change on a daily basis, and that an internal production report is FAR from being a release date.

You can destroy my point right now by simply linking me to the part of the production schedule that says "release date". Please do and shut me up, i'm willing to be wrong - I usually am, I just want to see the proof for my future discussions like this one :slight_smile:

You don't delay a release of an alpha [...] to polish the UI or to add more features...
I totally agree, which suggests there are things that are stopping it from being released that are not simple UI polishing or Feature related, does it not?

Your excuse for this is they are amateurs and treat this as a hobby, not a job? Then it will never be a AAA title, and they will get bored with it long before release.
Not sure I follow you, I don't recall saying anyone was an amateur? Or making excuses beyond providing links to facts and figures? Please help me and quote the bit you are referring to so I can respond to you without making assumptions as to what you are addressing.

The company that I ran QA for did 3D software, very successfully, not games...
So... you are not aware of the work Tarantula did? Or who Rockstar are...?

We have gone to numerous conventions, and never went to any empty handed.
Can you link me to where you have learned CIG intends to attend "empty handed"? They are doing a lot more than just work on the single 3.0 patch... If you have no such evidence, how about we wait and judge what is shown rather than make wild assumptions based on nothing more than what is essentially a number on a spreadsheet changing.
 
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Richard Bong

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Please reread the part of point 2 where it says: "You will see the same estimates we use in our internal planning, but it is important to understand that in many cases (especially with groundbreaking engineering tasks) these estimates are often subject to change due to unforeseen complexity" - it was not a release date and never has been.

As you have run software QA i'm sure you are aware as to the importance of internal production schedules for the coordination of all departments, the fact that the dates on them can and do change on a daily basis, and that an internal production report is FAR from being a release date.

You can destroy my point right now by simply linking me to the part of the production schedule that says "release date". Please do and shut me up, i'm willing to be wrong - I usually am, I just want to see the proof for my future discussions like this one :slight_smile:

I totally agree, which suggests there are things that are stopping it from being released that are not simple UI polishing or Feature related, does it not?

Not sure I follow you, I don't recall saying anyone was an amateur? Or making excuses beyond providing links to facts and figures? Please help me and quote the bit you are referring to so I can respond to you without making assumptions as to what you are addressing.

So... you are not aware of the work Tarantula did? Or who Rockstar are...?

Can you link me to where you have learned CIG intends to attend "empty handed"? They are doing a lot more than just work on the single 3.0 patch... If you have no such evidence, how about we wait and judge what is shown rather than make wild assumptions based on nothing more than what is essentially a number on a spreadsheet changing.
Internal production schedules that you announce, are deadlines. Internal production schedules that you don't announce are still deadlines.

Release date is on the bottom of the chart, Right where is says "release aim date."
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/g1o3c2tupgturr/source/300-High-Level-07-28-17.png

Except polish of the UI is the reason they said they were delaying the release 2 weeks ago. (Do I need to quote that as well? )

The whole point of this crowd funding success is to remove themselves from the grind-stone of traditional game development
So you are saying what? That they shouldn't act professionally, because of the source of the funds?

What, specifically, were you trying to imply?

It isn't a success unless the game is released.

A typical AAA game takes 5 to 9 years between concept and release. We are 5 years into that cycle and they are just now discovering they need a Delta Patcher, Serialized Variables and Delta only Net Code? How do you not have those prioritized in the first 6 months?

How do you plan ships with a minimum crew of 25+, without first sorting your net code to allow at least 256 people per server? How do you plan an MMO without net code that allows at least 256 people per server?

Management at CIG is too easily distracted by the next bit of shiny instead of doing the work.

Without a build that is recent, and newer than what they showed a year ago, that is arriving empty handed at a major convention, one of only two they attend per year. They aren't going to GDC, they aren't going to PAX South (Which is in Austin), or any of a dozen others. They are limiting themselves to 2 per year. (Not necessarily a bad thing.) You don't show up at an event like these costing 10's of thousands of dollars just to shake hands and kiss babies. You go with a build, that has been fully tested, demo computers and you let people see the game and play it.

Rockstar is irrelevant, they are not the ones missing deadlines.

<Edited for formatting>
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Internal production schedules that you announce, are deadlines.
They did not announce them, they allowed the backers to see them. No announcement was made. The caveats could not be clearer, to ignore them is to ignore the point of being allowed to see the schedules in the first place.

deadline.jpeg


Release date is on the bottom of the chart, Right where is says "release aim date."
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/g1o3c2tupgturr/source/300-High-Level-07-28-17.png
"aim"

As with intentionally ignoring the caveats, ignoring the fact that the act of aiming at something contains the possibility of missing the target, it does not make it any less true.

Except polish of the UI is the reason they said they were delaying the release 2 weeks ago. (Do I need to quote that as well? )
Would you kindly.

So you are saying what? That they shouldn't act professionally, because of the source of the funds? What, specifically, were you trying to imply? It isn't a success unless the game is released.
Google were accused of being 'unprofessional' with their relaxed office environment. They went on to change the world because they dared to do it their way.

SC is aiming to bring the gaming world something no 'professional' company would or could dare do, who in fact had first refusal and declined to fund it because they could not see the scope or the vision and said no one wanted a space sim. $160 million and counting says they were wrong. I can see no unprofessionalism in the 3.0 schedule report because they have gone to great pains to explain exactly what you are looking at. If you were going to rely on what you perceive to be 'professionalism' the game would not have been undertaken at all because according to studios no one wants this game. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem. Not CIGs.

stuff about code, online instance jiggery pokery and other dark arts of the binary tool box
They haven't finished making it yet. When they start making MMOs, how many players can they have in a single instance? When in Alpha? Before it has gone to public beta? If you know, please say - I don't know because I am not a game designer but I would expect it not to be 200 players... You may have noticed I condensed your response to the points I understood. I am no coder, I am no game manufacturer, I was lucky enough to visit R* QA studios in my studies but did not say what I was actually studying - it was not computer games, it was not IT, it was not even business studies. Perhaps you assumed i'd understand what you were talking about based on that? Perhaps you have assumed they have not already got all that covered because it is not yet present in the Alpha? When, exactly, does an Massive Multiplayer Online become Massive. I'd not expect it to in the Alpha patches, please do enlighten me if you know, i'd like to learn.

Rockstar is irrelevant, they are not the ones missing deadlines.
Um... Grand Theft Auto 5, one of the biggest games not just for Rockstar but for the whole industry missed it's release date, and when it did launch on consoles it was then delayed even longer on PC... I'm not slagging Rockstar off, that game was a monster and they did so well to get it together in the time they did - I have nothing but respect for them.

My point of referring to Rockstar is even companies that have a full suite of established game making tech, a full set of established studios with established studio management systems, an army of experienced established staff and a budget of $265 million miss their launch dates. Perspective, no?

I am enjoying our debate, I hope you are not finding this frustrating. :slight_smile:

BONUS GAME:-
If anyone noticed the Bioshock reference before getting to this point, you have got +10 BonusPoints.
Answer: "Would you kindly."
If anyone noticed the Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy reference before getting to this point, you have got +20 BonusPoints. Answer: "Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
 
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Richard Bong

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They did not announce them, they allowed the backers to see them. No announcement was made. The caveats could not be clearer, to ignore them is to ignore the point of being allowed to see the schedules in the first place.

View attachment 7149


"aim"
Release date.
They announced it, they missed it.
I am done with this. It has grown boring.
 

Printimus

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That is precisely what I mean when I am referring to "duty". Wallets talk.

Then he shouldn't be accepting millions of dollars to develop a video game. He knew exactly what he was up against, yet he looked into the camera and said December stone-cold confident (Just as a very large ship sale kicked off, I might add). His guilt of this stretches FAR before the 3.0 debacle. His Achilles heel is the simple fact that he talks out of his ass sometimes. That has real-world impact, and he has been irresponsible many many times in the past with this.

Absolutely.

Meh. Whatever, tho. You've got your perfectly valid opinion, and I've got my slightly saltier one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Bickering won't make it come out any faster, so pass me a beer already. :beers:
i still love you.
 

NaffNaffBobFace

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Release date.
They announced it, they missed it.
I am done with this. It has grown boring.
Shame, it was good chatting. I got your angle and can appreciate your viewpoint. It'll all get better, if you find any of those links i'd still love to see them so I can be better informed.

Anyhoo, have a wonderful day and don't hesitate to sample some of TESTs other fine threads. :slight_smile:
 

Sirus7264

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Just in time for Star Citizen to release
Just in time for Star citizen Drama haha.
Release date.
They announced it, they missed it.
I am done with this. It has grown boring.
Lol you just got here on Saturday that's not even a full week be patient good things will eventually come as you said AAA games take 5-9 years we are only at 5 the original project was not anticipated to have this many features, but since the game is still being backed more and more and people want more from the game its going to take longer. As for netcode yes that is true that they need to think more about how to handle more than 256 people but at the same time they do not know how big the game and how many features are going to be implemented in the end so why finish your netcode now. Finish the 1 player version then work on getting the MMO aspect out in a much larger scale by building netcode from the full list of features. They are doing a good job and progress is being made. For starting with just an idea 5 years ago they have come a long way. Servers, programmers, buildings in several countries, and all the tools to actually create the game. most AAA games start with all of that already somewhat in their pockets. Even if this comes out 5 years from now it is going to make a splash. We will all get what we are paying for don't expect a set deadline.
 
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