Test Squadron Organisation & Subdivisions

[I_MIKE_I]

Hey there, I've been away for a while and just happened to see that we're sort-of doing the same layout with Divisions as others, which IMO will lead to doing the same mistakes, most importantly: one hell of a confusion.

Let me explain: First of all, we have around 5k Main Members, we're the biggest (and best, obviously) Squadron in the 'verse, but the Game has hundreds of thousands of people already following the Development and the Number of players will Skyrocket as soon as permanent Progress can be made. What I want to say is: we can expect to increase our numbers to go up significantly as well.

Now, assuming we get 10 Subdivisions, it'll still mean one person having to manage 500+ Persons in the most complex game to date. In most RPG, the limit for a guild is around 100 and by design multiple Co-Leaders are also expected to be present by design - and those games aren't nearly as complex.

My suggestion is to make actual subdivisions smaller in the range of 50 to 100 people per subdivision andd instead add another layer between our beloved Leader and the subdivisions, namely: Divisions.

So rather than having huge subdivisions, we'll have Divisions which have a number of smaller subdivisions below them. At the same time, I'd suggest limiting subdivisions to a certain size (around 100), so one Subdivision doesn't overwhelm the others.

The job of the Divisions would be to organize and communicate with the subdivisions and other Divisions.

The Division itself would consist of a Leader and Co-Leaders.

So... what do you think about it?

 

[Lexicon]

This sounds like a semantics change.

Our largest subdivision so far (Rock Raiders) already has its own internal subdivisions, and will appoint subcommanders to head up its subdivisions as needs arise. What you are proposing would simply rename the Rock Raiders from a "subdivision" to a "division."

I don't see the point.

 

[Montoya]

All the things you have said have been discussed to death in many many meetings we have already had months ago.

Plans are in place!

 

[Montoya]

Our largest subdivision so far (Rock Raiders) already has its own internal subdivisions, and will appoint subcommanders to head up its subdivisions as needs arise.

Yep, first trial run is already up and running, its simply a case of replicating what works.

 

[NKato]

I concur with Montoya that we have already discussed the org's structure to death. I even did flowcharts for the leadership to look at.

For now, it's all on hold until we see a more functional organization system within Star Citizen. Hopefully we will see that post 3.0 Alpha. We need org hangars/bases before we can really start considering implementing other divisions.

The reason the Rock Raiders even exist as an official division is because of the massive amount of time and energy Black Sunder put into it.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

This sounds like a semantics change.

Our largest subdivision so far (Rock Raiders) already has its own internal subdivisions, and will appoint subcommanders to head up its subdivisions as needs arise. What you are proposing would simply rename the Rock Raiders from a "subdivision" to a "division."

I don't see the point.

No, my Idea isn't to rename anything, it's to allow more individuality and less competition between subdivisions to prevent the drama which is ensured to follow.

Divisions would be like: Racing, Transporting, Escorting, Piracy etc.

Inside those Divisions, people could join/create small subdivisions and if they happen to frequently disagree with the leader of their subdivision, they could just join another one. I simply think it should feel like having different subdivisions under one Roof, rather than few huge ones that you either join or gtfo.

 

[NKato]

No, my Idea isn't to rename anything, it's to allow more individuality and less competition between subdivisions to prevent the drama which is ensured to follow.

Divisions would be like: Racing, Transporting, Escorting, Piracy etc.

Inside those Divisions, people could join/create small subdivisions and if they happen to frequently disagree with the leader of their subdivision, they could just join another one. I simply think it should feel like having different subdivisions under one Roof, rather than few huge ones that you either join or gtfo.

We've already discussed this. I strongly suggest you read through our forums.

 

[slightlysane]

I like the current structure. I mean take Test Squadron > Rock Raiders > ILS for example. That's already a subdivision of a subdivision and I'm sure ILS will be broken into more than just one giant group.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

We've already discussed this. I strongly suggest you read through our forums.

It's difficult to find exactly the discussion for it, since there's an awful lot about subdivisions now.

Mind you, we still have the sticky "Notice: Professions Subforum is NOT for organizing your own private subdivision!" in the Professions Forum, while it actually got turned into nothing else than promotion for own subdivisions.

I like the current structure. I mean take Test Squadron > Rock Raiders > ILS for example. That's already a subdivision of a subdivision and I'm sure ILS will be broken into more than just one giant group.

I think you fail to understand the problem I see in this:

So far we have one official division/subdivision whatever, which means IF I'd join test now and would do trading etc. I'd either do without division/subdivision or join Rock Raiders, which means joining Black Sunder and do as he wants me to. (Note: I don't have anything against Black Sunder or anyone else for that matter.)

I just feel like we have two main issues with organizing it this way:

1. Too few people are in charge of too many people.
2. Inevitably, there will be competition = drama between the Divisions/Subdivisions or whatever it's currently called.

 

[NKato]

It's difficult to find exactly the discussion for it, since there's an awful lot about subdivisions now.

Mind you, we still have the sticky "Notice: Professions Subforum is NOT for organizing your own private subdivision!" in the Professions Forum, while it actually got turned into nothing else than promotion for own subdivisions.



I think you fail to understand the problem I see in this:

So far we have one official division/subdivision whatever, which means IF I'd join test now and would do trading etc. I'd either do without division/subdivision or join Rock Raiders, which means joining Black Sunder and do as he wants me to. (Note: I don't have anything against Black Sunder or anyone else for that matter.)

I just feel like we have two main issues with organizing it this way:

1. Too few people are in charge of too many people.
2. Inevitably, there will be competition = drama between the Divisions/Subdivisions or whatever it's currently called.

We already solved this. We call TEST Squadron an all-volunteer org. If you join a division, you can choose to opt into any activities involved, or opt to not follow orders and do your own thing on your own time. However, if you volunteer to join an operation, you're expected (but not required) to follow instructions.

It's really simple and resolves a lot of the issues you've mentioned. Additionally, members generally have the right to refuse orders that they feel do not jive with their capabilities or their time schedule.

Really simple.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

We already solved this. We call TEST Squadron an all-volunteer org. If you join a division, you can choose to opt into any activities involved, or opt to not follow orders and do your own thing on your own time. However, if you volunteer to join an operation, you're expected (but not required) to follow instructions.

It's really simple and resolves a lot of the issues you've mentioned. Additionally, members generally have the right to refuse orders that they feel do not jive with their capabilities or their time schedule.

Really simple.

Would you mind telling me where this is sort of... announced?

I mean... no matter how you look at it, if you're new to Test and look at the Professions-Forum, you'll get the impression that joining Rock Raiders is the way to go if you're hauling cargo etc. and from the way Rock Raiders describes itself it sounds an awful lot more serious than Test.

I'm still not too confident about this way of going about it, but I guess I kinda lack the infos about it.

 

[Montoya]

the way Rock Raiders describes itself it sounds an awful lot more serious than Test.
.

This may come as a shocking surprise, but with 10,000 members, there is a lot of variation on how they want to play the game.

We have some members that was strict military style combat division, we will have it.

Some members want more casual combat ops, the kind where you just drop in and join the group for the evening, we have that.

Rock Raiders is serious?

Yeah, it should be because resources and logistics are probably going to be the backbone of this organization, and that requires planning and structure.

If you dont want planning and structure, but just want to go mining with a buddy or ten buddies for an evening, guess what, we have that!

I think you need to come into discord and chat with me directly because you dont seem to understand how this is going to work and keep on saying how divisions lead to cancer.

 

[AstroGimp01]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYdQB0mkEU


'Gimp

 

[Thugari]

All I can say is that I am willing to donate time to anything that needs done. Not wanting anything in return, just willing to do my part for the betterment of Test. I am just an email away.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

This may come as a shocking surprise, but with 10,000 members, there is a lot of variation on how they want to play the game.

We have some members that was strict military style combat division, we will have it.

Some members want more casual combat ops, the kind where you just drop in and join the group for the evening, we have that.

Rock Raiders is serious?

Yeah, it should be because resources and logistics are probably going to be the backbone of this organization, and that requires planning and structure.

If you dont want planning and structure, but just want to go mining with a buddy or ten buddies for an evening, guess what, we have that!

I think you need to come into discord and chat with me directly because you dont seem to understand how this is going to work and keep on saying how divisions lead to cancer.

The thing is, that there's no explanation for it on the site etc. so - unless i'm exceptionally stupid - most people don't know what exactly is going on.

Also, I'm not saying Divisions are cancer, I just feel like it would be easier to organize TEST if you'd put Sub-Divisions in Divisions... which is actually sort of proven by the fact that Rock Raiders is going to create subdivisions inside itself.

What we have now is roughly:

Beloved Leader + Co-Leaders > Rock Raider > Rock Raider sub division
-------------------------------------------> others > other sub division

What I'd suggest would be like:

Beloved Leader + Co-Leaders > Transportation Division > Transportation-focused Subdivisions & Players
---------------------------------------------> Piracy Division > Piracy-focused Subdivisions & Players
---------------------------------------------> Racing Division > Racing-focused Subdivisions & Players
---------------------------------------------> etc.

"Divisions" would consist of Division Leaders and Co-Leaders and their Job would be to have the Subdivisions working together. For Subdivisions, I'd suggest a max. number of Players around 100.

 

[Black Sunder]

Hi. I'm the literal TEST Case for Divisions. :eek:

Everything Montoya said is correct about Divisions and RR. Is RR more serious than the TEST normal?Probably but at this time I don't see it that way. However making money can be serious and as the Industry Division we have to be that industrial backbone that supports the Org in whatever happens and in return they support RR.

@I_MIKE_I It seems like you're getting mixed up on semantic meanings of terms which isn't totally your fault as Montoya has not been clear on some things unless you watched that SOTS when he announced RR as the Official Industry Division and just religiously keep up with what he says here and on Discord. Think it was in July that SOTS was?

The main problem with what you suggest and especially with the player limits. First, that sort of thing can't be enforced........at all. It literally can't. Second, lets say there are 1000 people and they all come under the Transportation Division in your example. What would happen is you would have 10 individual leaders jockeying for power over the others and it would cause more drama than its worth. Seen it in other games and it never works. Tears the org apart as the conflict draws in others.

 

[I_MIKE_I]

The main problem with what you suggest and especially with the player limits. First, that sort of thing can't be enforced........at all. It literally can't. Second, lets say there are 1000 people and they all come under the Transportation Division in your example. What would happen is you would have 10 individual leaders jockeying for power over the others and it would cause more drama than its worth. Seen it in other games and it never works. Tears the org apart as the conflict draws in others.

Well you do have subdivisions in RR, as well as co-leaders. so I assume to some degree the Number of sub divisions and/or co-leaders would correspond witht he amount of people in RR and the need for organizing them.

The Divisions itself would only serve to organize the Subdivisions and it's not like one could be in only one division either.

For example, your current position would roughly translate to being leader in the Transportation, Mining and Escort Divisions and your current sub-divisions would be led by your Co-Leaders in RR.

The advantage of this would be a more unified chain of commands, in example:

Assuming RR currently has 1000 Members, 500 in Transportation, 400 in Escorting and 100 in Mining, you'd most likely create subdivisions for Transportation, Escorting and Mining anyway, and organize it by broadcasting it to your "underlings". But what if 5 Transports, 4 Escorts and a Miner have absolutely 0 clue how to get there and what to do? That would be only 1 % and can pretty much be expected to happen even on the most simple task... if things get more complex, all hell will break lose trying to explain things. (Let that be told from someone who did Multiple World Boss Raids in Lineage II :P)

In my Example it would be mostly like this:
You = Leader in Transport/Escort/Mining Division would tell the Subdivisions what's going on and the Leaders of the Subdivisions would get their Members where needed if they feel like joining on the Task at hand. If 1% of people would still not understand what to do, it would be only 1 Person per Subdivision.

Also, one thing I feel like I should have explained better is, that a Player Limit on Subdivisions doesn't mean 100 Players (example) for RR, just for each Subdivision, meaning you could still have the 1000 Players from the Example above by putting them into RR Transportation I-V, RR Escorting I-IV and RR Mining I - and to go a bit further on the Idea, you could do Subdivisions based on Timezone, too. I just think that a lot of people would become "lost" in too big Divisions/Subdivisions and that organisation would be a lot easier this way.

 

[Vett]

My take away is that with an org as large as TEST we are going to have plenty of people with differing opinions. Currently I think the we are setup the best we can be with out having a fully finished game. There are so many people that I can do anything I want (combat, industry, exploration) at any level I want (serious, casual, rp) and have 100+ people to do it with.

As with most things leaders will step to organize what is needed along the way. Black Sunder has spent countless hours putting together a solid division that he is passionate about. Down the road I think many others will step up to do the same. Montoya has started an org that in my opinion has the best chance of maximizing the fun that can be had and allow all members play how they see fit.

 

[Black Sunder]

Well you do have subdivisions in RR, as well as co-leaders. so I assume to some degree the Number of sub divisions and/or co-leaders would correspond witht he amount of people in RR and the need for organizing them.

And that's why you don't assume. The number of Branches and Ancillaries for RR won't be changing. They are what they are and are there to structure and organize the Division. There will not be 2 Mining Branches, 2 R&D Ancillaries etc.

The Divisions itself would only serve to organize the Subdivisions and it's not like one could be in only one division either.

For example, your current position would roughly translate to being leader in the Transportation, Mining and Escort Divisions and your current sub-divisions would be led by your Co-Leaders in RR.

It means I'm the leader of the Industry Division. Not the Logistics Division, not the Combat Division or any others. Just Industry. Rock Raiders is structured more like a real life mining company with a few extras added to help complete the start to market chain and have as much self sufficiency built in as possible but there are things we can't do wholesale and require help from other Divisions.

The advantage of this would be a more unified chain of commands, in example:

Assuming RR currently has 1000 Members, 500 in Transportation, 400 in Escorting and 100 in Mining, you'd most likely create subdivisions for Transportation, Escorting and Mining anyway, and organize it by broadcasting it to your "underlings". But what if 5 Transports, 4 Escorts and a Miner have absolutely 0 clue how to get there and what to do? That would be only 1 % and can pretty much be expected to happen even on the most simple task... if things get more complex, all hell will break lose trying to explain things. (Let that be told from someone who did Multiple World Boss Raids in Lineage II :p)

In my Example it would be mostly like this:
You = Leader in Transport/Escort/Mining Division would tell the Subdivisions what's going on and the Leaders of the Subdivisions would get their Members where needed if they feel like joining on the Task at hand. If 1% of people would still not understand what to do, it would be only 1 Person per Subdivision.

Also, one thing I feel like I should have explained better is, that a Player Limit on Subdivisions doesn't mean 100 Players (example) for RR, just for each Subdivision, meaning you could still have the 1000 Players from the Example above by putting them into RR Transportation I-V, RR Escorting I-IV and RR Mining I - and to go a bit further on the Idea, you could do Subdivisions based on Timezone, too. I just think that a lot of people would become "lost" in too big Divisions/Subdivisions and that organisation would be a lot easier this way.

That's a really condescending thing to call my current staff. They are not 'underlings' as you call them. This is a team effort and has been since last October. They are partners in this and I'm grateful for their help and insight.

As for the rest of your post. This is why the Overviews are being written and added to the Rock Raiders Codex as time goes on to show the bare bones structure of the Branches and Ancillaries along with some of how they will oeprate as their concepts are thought out and put to paper.

 

[maynard]

defining organizational structures at this point is putting the cart before the horse

how we should organize depends on what the game allows us to do - which we have very little knowledge of

for example, how many of us will be able to fight together in an instance?

whatever the answer is, there will be an optimal fleet composition and structure

we could plan our order of battle now, but it would almost certainly be sub-optimal

there is a reason God gave us beer to drink and forums to shitpost in - so we can pass the time agreeably until the game goes live and emergent gameplay reveals the way