Ships are like a yogurt, you just eat them
Why are ships so hard? (this may be a shitpost)
- Thread starter Blind Owl
- Start date
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
This was true in Mechwarrior too. In fact, PPC's were just notorious for their ability to miss opponents, and drivers would not even try to hit fast targets with them. Using a fast or slow weapon changes the way you see the battlefield and the way you fight.
Why are the Panthers so popular? They seem so similar to the Omni IX's but the latter has much better range and overheats less, so I don't get it. There's no doubt though that people love the Panthers. The S3 mass drivers are far too slow to do the same job as the S2's.
where did you get omnisky IX's they aren't available in voyager direct or in the rec store, so i cant test them. and the omnisky VI's suck ass and are only Size 2, not to mention they dont fire as fast.
The Omnisky series are laser cannons, not repeaters, hence the better range, they also fire slower, hence the lower overheat rate. either way if there are Omnisky IX's, i have yet to see and use them. Panther repeaters range isnt bad, but the dps and fire rate are good enough that they are one of the best S3 weapons available, at least on the energy side of the spectrum, the Ballistic side has some more power overall, but either fire too slow, or sacrifice so much range that they are useless on the sabre.
Like i said in other posts, i love the Mantis Gatlings, amazing fire rate and damage, but they overheat quick, and require you to be within 1200m to hit anything, but they are great against fast moving ships. I also love the tarantulas, amazing firepower and range, but all but useless on a fast maneuvering ship, or against targets that are fast or maneuvering, due to their slow fire rate and projectile velocity.
The Omnisky series are laser cannons, not repeaters, hence the better range, they also fire slower, hence the lower overheat rate. either way if there are Omnisky IX's, i have yet to see and use them. Panther repeaters range isnt bad, but the dps and fire rate are good enough that they are one of the best S3 weapons available, at least on the energy side of the spectrum, the Ballistic side has some more power overall, but either fire too slow, or sacrifice so much range that they are useless on the sabre.
Like i said in other posts, i love the Mantis Gatlings, amazing fire rate and damage, but they overheat quick, and require you to be within 1200m to hit anything, but they are great against fast moving ships. I also love the tarantulas, amazing firepower and range, but all but useless on a fast maneuvering ship, or against targets that are fast or maneuvering, due to their slow fire rate and projectile velocity.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Could be they're just not in game. Several months ago I read an analysis and the guy was calling them "the best S3 weapon". Was not a bad analysis. It's on this chart:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nU2Ten4SWLfPrB92PsuJ2xNEevBDc5Rkqr7jsusGUAE/edit#gid=278523881
If anyone can figure out what is the functional difference between normal DPS and "Power Limited DPS" I'd be hugely obliged. It really matters whether the Panthers are power limited. When they are the Sledge's are actually a better gun (save that you burn ammo). I think from looking at the purple "power" section of the chart on the right, that this may concern "Burst Time" where at first the weapon is somehow more fully charged? The Sledge has no difference between Power Limited and not, and none too coincidentally I think, it has no burst time. So what it appears is the Panthers are a much better weapon than the Sledge for the first 10 seconds of "burst" fire and they then are much lower power.
This would mean that you want to practice trigger discipline even flying lasers, so it really matters. Any ideas?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nU2Ten4SWLfPrB92PsuJ2xNEevBDc5Rkqr7jsusGUAE/edit#gid=278523881
If anyone can figure out what is the functional difference between normal DPS and "Power Limited DPS" I'd be hugely obliged. It really matters whether the Panthers are power limited. When they are the Sledge's are actually a better gun (save that you burn ammo). I think from looking at the purple "power" section of the chart on the right, that this may concern "Burst Time" where at first the weapon is somehow more fully charged? The Sledge has no difference between Power Limited and not, and none too coincidentally I think, it has no burst time. So what it appears is the Panthers are a much better weapon than the Sledge for the first 10 seconds of "burst" fire and they then are much lower power.
This would mean that you want to practice trigger discipline even flying lasers, so it really matters. Any ideas?
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Well, remember that sheet is old, and doesnt contain anything past 2.1.1PTU, also, what the creator defines as normal DPS vs Power Limited has been referred to in different ways (aka Heat Limited), what it actually refers to is speculative as best, and until i can get a 100% definition on what it refers to and whether it refers to angle drop off, stored energy drop off, or weapon heat dropping power, etc. For instance if it refers to when a weapon has overheated, of course the panthers DPS will drop off, as the panthers fire rate gets lowered when they overheat, however, a sledge wont lose DPS on overheat, because it fires one round, therefore no matter the weapon heat, its slow fire rate will result in the same DPS per trigger hold. However if it refers to stored power, thats unknown, as the weapons don't currently store power, they simply draw from the power plant. And i dont see that changing.
However, When being used the weapons draw significantly more power from the plant, and its possible that energy weapons may lose power output if the plant isnt big enough to supply all weapons and other systems. This is already somewhat modelled in-game with shield recharge times and engine power being limited when firing more power heavy systems. And with the sledge being a ballistic weapon, it will draw the required power everytime, rather than lowering its energy output based on available power, which could result in the ship losing systems if on an underpowered plant.
There are about 25 different ways i could theorize what Power Limited means, whether its range, actual power output, etc. until we know what it means, we cant analyze it. So i go from base stats only. and from base stats the panther has more DPS than the sledge, which it should as the sledge is only a size 2 weapon, and a slow firing one at that. However you could end up eventually seeing smaller energy weapons being "Overclocked" so to speak to do more damage at a cost of overheating faster or losing range or drawing more power. Which could result in smaller weapons eventually being able to "outperform" larger weapons on DPS or Physical Damage or true Damage or even any other type of damage, while still being underperfoming in other aspects.
However, I also fully expect energy weapons to be great against shields in general, while dealing decent heat damage to armor, and being good at cutting through armor if concentrated on a single area, while ballistics will be better against armor as far as penetration, and true damage and any splash damage shields, splash damage shields most likely will be designed to absorb area damage very well, but when hit with a ballistic round, which doesnt deal splash damage, but rather hits a very small point, the shield wont be able to handle that as well.
Of course this is all theoretical, and no one can say 100% what the plan is except for our CIG Overlords.
However, When being used the weapons draw significantly more power from the plant, and its possible that energy weapons may lose power output if the plant isnt big enough to supply all weapons and other systems. This is already somewhat modelled in-game with shield recharge times and engine power being limited when firing more power heavy systems. And with the sledge being a ballistic weapon, it will draw the required power everytime, rather than lowering its energy output based on available power, which could result in the ship losing systems if on an underpowered plant.
There are about 25 different ways i could theorize what Power Limited means, whether its range, actual power output, etc. until we know what it means, we cant analyze it. So i go from base stats only. and from base stats the panther has more DPS than the sledge, which it should as the sledge is only a size 2 weapon, and a slow firing one at that. However you could end up eventually seeing smaller energy weapons being "Overclocked" so to speak to do more damage at a cost of overheating faster or losing range or drawing more power. Which could result in smaller weapons eventually being able to "outperform" larger weapons on DPS or Physical Damage or true Damage or even any other type of damage, while still being underperfoming in other aspects.
However, I also fully expect energy weapons to be great against shields in general, while dealing decent heat damage to armor, and being good at cutting through armor if concentrated on a single area, while ballistics will be better against armor as far as penetration, and true damage and any splash damage shields, splash damage shields most likely will be designed to absorb area damage very well, but when hit with a ballistic round, which doesnt deal splash damage, but rather hits a very small point, the shield wont be able to handle that as well.
Of course this is all theoretical, and no one can say 100% what the plan is except for our CIG Overlords.
I just spent all night playing with different loadouts on a hornet. Just a regular old hornet. Rented the turret converter thingy and the turret for the front end, and spent the night playing with everything. Gotta say, distortion cannons are awesome. Great for taking down shields fast. Worst problem is having to set your damn weapon groups every damn time you spawn. That sucks. Lots.
Anyways, the more I play with it, the more I'll learn. The more I learn, the more I shall happily pass onto you friend Grimbli.
Profound. ;)
I tried the sledges. I found the fire rate, coupled with the fact I like to move, and the fact they overheat very fast, made these badboys very hard to use. I reverted back to my broadswords or m5a's Perhaps with the stealth, using them long range, they'll work the way you're thinking.
Distortion cannons though. Set those on the nose turret of a hornet, and set them to fire group 2...
Throw whatever else you desire on for the rest (2x m5a and 1x m6a) and you'll tear shit apart
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
I wish I had found this post before I started a new thread on the subject, but let me recommend the other thread anyway. I think that chart does actually explain what may be the case if indeed the notion of a "pool" of energy is correct. It should be easy to verify the contents of that table.
I can't imagine anyone actually checking all those stats. I am hoping they were leaked by CIG and are reliable.
That is the implication of what has been said about how the Jokers operate. They hit across a larger field specifically so they do not do so much physical damage, but rather focus on shields and spiking the 'puter.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Cool.
According to the chart I've been using they should never overheat, so I am disappointed. The low fire rate I can handle for the sake of increased raw firepower and range, but not the overheating. I was thinking of putting 6 Sledges and 4 Panthers on a Redeemer and now I am all put off. How quickly do they overheat?
IMHO, the Redeemer needs long range weapons. Against a fighter it would have trouble, but it is intended for boarding actions, so if it can hit at long rang and dodge incoming, it could stay safe until its target is "pacified" sufficiently that its occupants would submi. . .I mean consent to tea at their place to discuss term. . .I mean to negotiate settlements and such.
like i said earlier, that chart dates back to 2.1.1PTU and is therefore unreliable, not to mention lacking input from cig or the chart creator on the meanings of the numbers/categories, making it next to impossible to properly analyze, not to mention how thing will continue to change as CIG adds in features such as overclocking and upgraded parts.
However i do think the pool theory is close, but not quite what happens, the way i see it, with the power settings on the Comp set to the middle, all weapons have the same percentage of the Power Cell (Power Unit? Power Supply? whatever) available, basically you have a pool of energy say (insert random number) 1500PU (Power Units) divided into 3 categories (minus life support and other mandatory and automated systems) so take out the pool for the mandatory systems say 300PU, that leaves 1200PU to be distributed evenly between the 3 power sections (Shields, Maneuvering (Engines/Thrusters), and Weapons.) so on an even distribution that means each section gets 400PU now when your weapons lets say on the sabre, my 4 panthers, aren't being fired they draw around 25PU which is taken out of their pool, and when they are fired, they take 50PU Per Second, however the Power Supply also is continuously recharging (Generating heat, but thats a separate matter, but linked) lets say its recharging at 20PU per second, now this means the weapons will fire until their heat cant be cooled by the Cooler (which also takes power), however their power pool shouldn't deplete before they overheat. Which is currently the case as my shields and engines on the sabre dont suffer performance losses from continuously firing the panthers.
However, lets say i swap those for say 4 S3 Tarantula's, which only draw 15PU Unused, but when fired, draw 75PU per round, in theory using the same recharge rate, the ship will eventually suffer performance loss in either the weapons, the shields, or the engines, or a combination of the 3. however, if you prioritize the power to the weapons, they cool faster, and have more energy diverted to them, however as you near the draw limit of the power supply, you will notice shields not recharging, thrusters not firing, etc. I have yet to notice this on the sabre with any setup, however back in 2.3 when i had the flashfire on a cutlass, along with 3 powerful S3 laser weapons, i notice the engines losing power when i fired, and my shield recharge rate slowed considerably.
Now obviously, heat and the cooling unit will also factor into this, but with what i outlined above and the fact that im to lazy to type any more than i already have, you can see the potential for individual systems to completely fail, or even potentially having the entire ship shutdown and reboot. Or even the possibility of shorting out Life Support or sensors, etc. It also means that smaller weapons will still have a place, however realize the weapons themselves dont have a dedicated "Charge" required to fire, but rather pull their power from the ships available "Pool" and in doing so, reduce the rest of the ships systems available power depending on power settings.
And obviously, i am also simply theory crafting based on the currently models things in game.
However i do think the pool theory is close, but not quite what happens, the way i see it, with the power settings on the Comp set to the middle, all weapons have the same percentage of the Power Cell (Power Unit? Power Supply? whatever) available, basically you have a pool of energy say (insert random number) 1500PU (Power Units) divided into 3 categories (minus life support and other mandatory and automated systems) so take out the pool for the mandatory systems say 300PU, that leaves 1200PU to be distributed evenly between the 3 power sections (Shields, Maneuvering (Engines/Thrusters), and Weapons.) so on an even distribution that means each section gets 400PU now when your weapons lets say on the sabre, my 4 panthers, aren't being fired they draw around 25PU which is taken out of their pool, and when they are fired, they take 50PU Per Second, however the Power Supply also is continuously recharging (Generating heat, but thats a separate matter, but linked) lets say its recharging at 20PU per second, now this means the weapons will fire until their heat cant be cooled by the Cooler (which also takes power), however their power pool shouldn't deplete before they overheat. Which is currently the case as my shields and engines on the sabre dont suffer performance losses from continuously firing the panthers.
However, lets say i swap those for say 4 S3 Tarantula's, which only draw 15PU Unused, but when fired, draw 75PU per round, in theory using the same recharge rate, the ship will eventually suffer performance loss in either the weapons, the shields, or the engines, or a combination of the 3. however, if you prioritize the power to the weapons, they cool faster, and have more energy diverted to them, however as you near the draw limit of the power supply, you will notice shields not recharging, thrusters not firing, etc. I have yet to notice this on the sabre with any setup, however back in 2.3 when i had the flashfire on a cutlass, along with 3 powerful S3 laser weapons, i notice the engines losing power when i fired, and my shield recharge rate slowed considerably.
Now obviously, heat and the cooling unit will also factor into this, but with what i outlined above and the fact that im to lazy to type any more than i already have, you can see the potential for individual systems to completely fail, or even potentially having the entire ship shutdown and reboot. Or even the possibility of shorting out Life Support or sensors, etc. It also means that smaller weapons will still have a place, however realize the weapons themselves dont have a dedicated "Charge" required to fire, but rather pull their power from the ships available "Pool" and in doing so, reduce the rest of the ships systems available power depending on power settings.
And obviously, i am also simply theory crafting based on the currently models things in game.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
All your theory crafting is base on actual experience and helps a great deal. For instance, I did not know you had a control over where to put your available power. That does indeed imply a pool of power as a resource that can be allocated, and confirms the notion that there would be lots of conditions where not firing so you can recharge shields could prove wise. It sounds like the whole system has very deliberately been designed to be so complex as to force one to make very careful choices.
One thing this all says to me is the Redeemer has some huge benefits over the Vanguard. Maybe the Vanguard can be stealthier than the Redeemer, but the latter has a much, MUCH bigger reactor.
One thing this all says to me is the Redeemer has some huge benefits over the Vanguard. Maybe the Vanguard can be stealthier than the Redeemer, but the latter has a much, MUCH bigger reactor.
I'll test them again and let you know.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Agreed, but I would note that it is so very specific, such as things like the Panthers draw I57.5 per second; that I think the data must have come from CIG. How could anyone have measured such a thing so accurately? Also there are columns for data that don't exist yet. No one merely compiling data would have included those. And the Omni's on the table. . .how could anyone have data for weapons that aren't in game yet? Someone who knows how the systems are going to work would have had to compile that data.
It smells like a CIG release or leak to me, and since I don't have other data to go on, it is all I have for analysis. I'd note the Panthers actually draw less than Jokers. That's key when considering putting twice as many Jokers on a Tana. The power draw is going to be severe.
I sure wish we had data for reactor power generation.
Just got bugged hard. No ballistic weapons that I mount are loading into the verse or electronic access with any ammo. Ticket submitted.
Known bug afaik. Weapons that have been mounted and then demounted that require ammo bug out once they are removed and the ammo will not follow the weapon.
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
Here's an older comparison. Apparently the original Sledge I was so overpowered they completely refurbished it.
DcTrojan72
Vice Admiral
phew.. good save.. i was worried that all this discussion was getting to far away from the shit posting and the beer cooler
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
If the Sledge II is overheating, I think they're going to need to fix it in order to have a place for mass drivers. It seems they nerfed it way past reasonable. It is enough that it fires slower and requires heavy ammo. It should be burning less power, generating less heat, doing less damage but providing greater range than the lasers, IMHO. Otherwise what is the purpose?