Will there be steaming piles?

breadbin

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Companies need to stop buying IPs cos they're popular just to make some half-assed shit up on the spot because they didn't think through what they actually wanted to do with it, and start buying them cos they actually have a single worthwhile idea to make something with it before they grab the rights to it. Get somebody passionate who actually cares about the series and you might end up with something more engaging in these things.

Awful writing has been a real rough point the last few years for a lot of properties and it often feels like they consistently fail to introduce ideas that build on that property, instead just diluting it down with recycled ideas where they seem like they're playing it safe, but in the end it's just boring or sloppy narratives.

New IPs are also good, since those ones are already their own fresh ideas. Coulda got how many fresh takes for how much this cost them? Sure, lots of new ideas flop and we only remember the few that took off, but you smear a popular IP and people get that lingering bad taste in their mouth over something that woulda otherwise been forgettable. People will remember this show for a long time, but not for the reasons they want them to.
 

Lorddarthvik

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Sad but true.

I stopped after release day's first two episodes. TBH I only watched it cos I still had Prime as the wife was catching up on the Expanse, and because every YT channel was covering this instead of talking about good stuff (Edgerunners for example) I wanted to see what the fuss was about.

Even if I try to be as nice and unbiased and normie about it as humanly possible, it's just bad writing and boring as hell, with almost all of the characters being flat or outright horrible people, and it feels cheap despite the mostly awesome CGI.
Friends, absolute normies, got up to ep3 and just dropped it. It's just meh on an extreme level.
The only one among them who knows more about Tolkien's works than the P.J. movies was utterly disappointed, even though he doesn't mind "different takes" on already existing works. He rather enjoys stuff I usually dislike with a passion and even he couldn't get past ep3. To me this was proof enough that I shouldn't bother either.


@Shadow Reaper
 

Shadow Reaper

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Companies need to stop buying IPs cos they're popular just to make some half-assed shit up on the spot because they didn't think through what they actually wanted to do with it, and start buying them cos they actually have a single worthwhile idea to make something with it. . .
It's a simple business decision for Amazon to decide to invest in its own big time franchise. The trouble came when they went with a pair of untested showrunners who sold themselves by stating they wanted to update the franchise so that it would be relevant, meaning it better reflect the world we live in today. Realize, this is the OPPOSITE of what Peter Jackson did that was so successful. This is a pretty childish thing to do and though the children who proposed it are probably products of Presentism who think what happened before they were born is irrelevant to life; the execs at Amazon are the ones who should have known better.

You cannot take a classic work and replace all its values with trendy ones and expect not to piss off the fans, and Amazon bought the rights BECAUSE of the enormous fan base. Now that the fans have been alienated, they have a dead property.

Apart from delivering to audiences what they fear most--the trashing of their beloved--there is the crappy writing. This is actually the part that is for me much harder to understand. Anyone can pick up a script and read it. It is on Amazon they didn't have any decent readers to figure out where this was headed. Flat flavorless dialog and nonsensical plot devices can be spotted by a first year film student. Why did they trust two guys with no experience and not watch over their shoulder to see they weren't busy failing? If you had a billion dollars at stake, seems you'd hire a couple experts to keep an eye on. Instead we have steaming piles.

I'll own I am dismayed and disappointed yet another franchise has been trashed by self-righteous psychotic injustice warriors who think force feeding the masses their broken ethics is somehow justifiable. That however seems inevitable given the rise of post-modernism and the refusal to regard truth as a thing. It is actually more surprising and hurtful that care for a billion dollar property was delivered into children's hands with what appears no accountability and no one watching to see where the toddlers were shitting.
 
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Sky Captain

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My take away from this thread so far ....

The overarching message is that matter what it is ... Dr. Who, Tolkein, Star Trek, Star Wars ... nobody better touch the lore that first influenced us as we grew up, because they can't do it better.

I can tend to relate to that and then again sometimes can't.

I've been into Tolkein but the current Rings of Power stuff ... its just not holding my attention. On the other hand, I watched what Disney did with Obiwan very closely, a number of times now, and find how they did that story to be very powerful, laying groundwork for whom Obiwan was to be become. Does Star Trek Discovery wokeism turn me off? Yes. But I also find some of its more creative exploration stories to be far more interesting than some of the more original series and TNG episodes. Suffice it to say I could go on with pages of detail.

The bottom line is: Is it the shows, or is it me, that makes new stuff bad? Sure the underlying quality of the shows definitely matter. But its not always about that as early Doctor Who did not exactly have today's production values and I enjoyed that. Instead, I wonder if its my open mindedness (or lack of it) enough to pay attention to and absorb the new story that someone new is show me in my old context that is more often the culprit affecting my enjoyment. I dont care much to hear another Tolkein story right now expanding that concept for me thats been in my head for so long, so I'm not enjoying it. I do care about Star Trek SNW and have been ready for the adventures of Captain Pike for ages, so I'm loving it.
 

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I haven't really enjoyed Rings of Power, but I can see how they're tying into the Tolkien story now. But Tolkien was a master story teller, and wasn't trying to write for the small screen. It was also a life's work for him, compared with a studio that has deadlines and budgets to deal with. The biggest problem with the series is that difference impacts it a lot. It also impacted the original movies too, but not to such an extent.

Am I disappointed? Not terribly. It's just there's nothing about the story that's compelling me to watch it.
 

Shadow Reaper

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The overarching message is that matter what it is ... Dr. Who, Tolkein, Star Trek, Star Wars ... nobody better touch the lore that first influenced us as we grew up, because they can't do it better.
I think you misunderstand all the complaints fans make when they object to changes in source material to suit a new audience. It's got nothing to do with thinking no one can do it better. Tolkien was a verbose "purple proser" whose writing was good but far from the best. One can argue that a relative hack, Terry Brooks; did better than Tolkien when he wrote the first in the Shannara series, simply because his characters were better fleshed out and explored. It's not that no one can do high fantasy better than Tolkien. It's that no one has the right to take his world and repaint it to suit a series of values that are alien to his world. What Amazon is doing violates Tolkien's world, while inside his world.

High fantasy is by definition, that which portrays elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, men, etc. in the same way Tolkien did. First edition AD&D was high fantasy. Everything that followed it is not. Tolkien didn't have Drow. Rather, he stipulated that goblins were underground dwelling, "ruined elves". When TSR created the drow they violated the boundaries created by Tolkien and AD&D ceased to be high fantasy. That doesn't mean D&D isn't better for it. One could argue both sides. One cannot however argue that D&D is high fantasy, by any useful definition.

Instead, I wonder if its my open mindedness (or lack of it) enough to pay attention to and absorb the new story that someone new is show me in my old context that is more often the culprit affecting my enjoyment.
No, that's bullshit. Tolkien would turn in his grave if he knew what was done to his world. This has to do with deliberate disrespect, and the shitting upon the past to serve a bunch of unethical children. Presentism as expressed by Hollywood is the product of a diseased mind. It needs to be called such or it will grow. It is not fair to "reinterpret" old stories in their contexts, specifically to gall the fans of that art. And yet, this is EXACTLY THE INTENTION of the RoP writers. They said this is what they intended to do and the fans have been objecting since the very first trailers were released. This has NOTHING to do with someone telling a better story than Tolkien. No one thinks that, nor ever has; and no one has ever made that claim.
 
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Sky Captain

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So if I like Rings of Power that's bullshit? Well, that's bullshit.

Disney is doing a great job extrapolating from source materials and creating solid story and visuals. We may or may not agree with the story, but the idea that they are effing everything up is bullshit.

We are still welcome to read Tolkein's books and be happy with those alone. No one is forcing us to watch someone else's idea or extrapolation of it.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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Hey, that's twice now you've misrepresented what I said. The first time was when you pretended I'm not open minded, and lack attention. That's bullshit. Now you're pretending I said it's bullshit that you enjoy it, and we all know I never said that either.

What the fuck do I care you if you enjoy it? Pigs enjoy rolling in shit. I'm not one to care. Know this though: cheezy attempts to twist the words of others and misrepresent them only serve to piss off the adults in the room. You can learn to object without the bullshit. Tell us something good about it and I'll listen. Right now the net is abuzz with thousands of people loudly complaining that it sucks because it was fucked up in exactly the same way and for the same reasons that Star Wars, Star Trek and a host of others have been fucked up.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12f0ligwS5s
 
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GPcustoms

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Okay, okay I watched the 1st season because the wife fell in love with Lord of the Rings. For me it was a story I read as a child so the movie just touched on the details that a book can create(this one not so much).
As for this spin I can't say much more than the writers guild seem to have no original Ideas any more. Seems every time I see a trailer its a new spin on something I saw years ago and this series was an attempt at riding on the fame of the original success in my humble opinion.
Wife enjoyed the costumes and theme but not so much the show as a whole. As for me even with multiple adult beverages I would prefer watching the gang not find anything on Oak Island... :like:
If there is another season I think I will go into the spare bedroom and watch something more to my liking...Maybe Gilligan's Island :o7:
 

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The overarching message is that matter what it is ... Dr. Who, Tolkein, Star Trek, Star Wars ... nobody better touch the lore that first influenced us as we grew up, because they can't do it better.
No, that's bullshit.
Hey, that's twice now you've misrepresented what I said. The first time was when you pretended I'm not open minded, and lack attention. That's bullshit. Now you're pretending I said it's bullshit that you enjoy it, and we all know I never said that either.
Bullshit.
 

Sky Captain

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What the fuck do I care you if you enjoy it? Pigs enjoy rolling in shit.
You can learn to object without the bullshit.
Dude, I shared a personal reflection on myself that you called 'bullshit'. Thanks for that. Then you followed up insinuating I'm a pig in shit after all I did was use the same level of vocabulary you did to describe an alternate perspective (without mentioning you at all). You then made it personal, not me, bro. You just didn't like disagreement. Sounds like you are too close to the topic. Go have a beer and chill out man. Its just Tolkein. Its not the Bible or Torah or Quran. Oh, and by way, my wife told me to share with y'all that I'm a sexy stallion, not a pig in shit, in case anyone else wondered. Cheers all!
 
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Dirtbag_Leader

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Its just Tolkein. Its not the Bible or Tora or Quran.
Wait, what makes any of these topics more/less acceptable of rancor than the others? I'm not sure belittling others' opinions is justifiable, regardless of the specific work of literature under discussion. Debating religion shouldn't give you a free pass to be a douchebag either.
 
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Sky Captain

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I'd suggest you reread above, friend. I'm not the one who first took apart someone's reflections about their personal-selves as bullshit. I'm not the first one who then insinuated someone is a pig in shit and other names. Yes, I did express alternative ideas - using the exact same vocabulary first used by others about ideas. If an OP wants to call someone's idea bullshit, they are opening themselves up to the same. But my posts focused on perspectives, not people. I did not respond otherwise until name calling began. Am I guilty of disagreeing? Sure. Am I guilty of standing up for myself when my name was besmirched. Sure. But my posts here have been about ideas, not people, until others took that to a different level. If you are now adding to that by calling me a douchebag, well, then I'd ask for your apology.
 
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Dirtbag_Leader

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I'd suggest you reread above, friend
I would suggest the same, as I was basically agreeing with your sentiment, and was clearly not calling you a douche at all. Rather, I was questioning why you seemed to insinuate that the ill treatment of your opinion would have been considered acceptable were it applied to a different topic. I don't think someone's opinion on either Tolkien's works OR religious texts should be dismissed as bullshit.
 

Shadow Reaper

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Again, that's all bullshit.

Here again is the place this thread was derailed:

Instead, I wonder if its my open mindedness (or lack of it) enough to pay attention to and absorb the new story that someone new is show me in my old context that is more often the culprit affecting my enjoyment.
No, that's bullshit. Tolkien would turn in his grave if he knew what was done to his world. This has to do with deliberate disrespect, and the shitting upon the past to serve a bunch of unethical children.
Obviously I was not calling disagreement about the content of the above bullshit, neither your ability to enjoy it. What I said was that it is indeed BULLSHIT that you think people are complaining out of lack of open mindedness. That is obviously BULLSHIT and indeed Tolkien would roll over in his grave were he to see what is being done to intentionally modernize the world he built--a world that spawned its own genre in literature and film and that millions have come to know and love.

Stop making everything about you. It's not about you. It's about the steaming piles and why those who love Tolkien hate this doomed series. It's about how this was called beforehand by the fans who noted when the showrunners said they were going to project their own broken ethics into the story rather than respect those of the author. the showrunners were very specific. They said and did the opposite of what Peter Jackson said and did, and the outcome is seen as an abomination by the vast majority of Tolkien fans. This has nothing to do with being open minded. It has to do with the intentions of the show runners being perverse and stupid. The fans did not object to Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy because Jackson continued to present Tolkien's world as faithfully as he could, despite he wove in a host of original material--new stories. To be sure, there were a few who objected to Jackson creating new characters out of whole cloth--Tauriel, and his including an elf-dwarf love story. However, the vast majority of Tolkien fans owned that Tolkien wrote strong female characters (Eowyn) way before the feminist movement, and there's nothing to suggest he himself would not approve of the Tauriel character and arc. Tauriel didn't violate Tolkien's intentions; she merely extended them.

New stories are not what the fans object to. The entire series is intended to be NEW STORIES. They object to the deliberate perversion of Tolkien's world.
 
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Sky Captain

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What the fuck do I care you if you enjoy it? Pigs enjoy rolling in shit. I'm not one to care. Know this though: cheezy attempts to twist the words of others and misrepresent them only serve to piss off the adults in the room.
Bullshit. This is where you derailed it. Prior to this the dialog was entirely about Tolkein.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I do apologize if you thought something I said meant I don't respect your right to enjoy the show. That is and was not however, the topic of discussion. It isn't about you.

I don't know what generation you are but try to understand if you're not elderly enough to appreciate what's being done to the old and cherished. Star Trek has ships' crew betraying one another, sneaking sex, violating their oaths to the service, etc. The fans stopped watching 3-4 series ago. Kathleen Kennedy deliberately shanked the prime protagonist of the first three Star Wars films and deprecated him as horridly as possible. Dr. Who, the Hulk, and many others have been gender swapped. 007 to come. There's no end to the madness. Original heroines like Galadriel and Captain Marvel are being portrayed as arrogant, unlikeable assholes. There's something seriously wrong here. It is especially wrong when the people behind the madness openly declare they do not intend to honor the source material, but rather inject their modern views--views that only a tiny minority hold. Galadriel is not a likeable character in this series. She is completely unlike the character in the books and the Jackson movies. She abandoned a party member to die for no reason, because a poor writer thought that would demonstrate strong character. That's not strong character. That's narcissism.

The fans have a right to complain when their beloved characters and stories are deliberately shat upon. That's what happened to Luke and that's what is happening to Tolkien's entire world now. Hopefully it's not about you and me, but we are witnesses to these things. What then should we say about them?

I'll say this much: Tolkien's world was all about the immense value of character. Jackson got Tolkien completely right when he had Gandalf say "Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. It is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love." Jackson understood and honored Tolkien. That's not what this series is doing. The writers don't believe that and they're not portraying that. Instead, it's all about a 100 lbs. elf woman tossing full grown men twice her size about like rag dolls and we're all supposed to be impressed. I'm not impressed and neither should any fan of Tolkien be, because this is NOT what Tolkien believed nor portrayed.

Let me leave you with an illustration of what I mean. The superheros of Middle Earth: Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are all suiting up with extra armor for the battle of Helm's Deep. Aragorn is sharing words of encouragement with the men, but this is all too much for Legolas. He says what they are all thinking, "they are all going to die!"

Aragorn can't leave. These are his people. He knows no skill with sword or bow is going to change this outcome, but these are his people, and he is staying. Since Aragorn is staying, Gimli and Legolas find they can't leave either, despite they know this will mean their deaths. So be it. This is courage, and honor, and sacrifice for what they believe is right, but they're all going to die for that part of their character. Then the horn blows.

500 elven archers come unbidden, simply because they once had a pact with men, and intend to honor it. They ALSO know they're all going to die. For an immortal, that seems to me a big deal. Every time I read it or watch it, it makes me cry, for it always reminds me of the incredible sacrifice men so often make on the battlefield, fighting not so much against an enemy, but for the brothers standing at their side. Seems to me this could only have been written by someone who served in a terribly bloody war, as did Tolkien in WW 1.

What does RoP give us instead? An uber-fighter 100 lb waif slaps down three burley men in armor with just one tap each so fast that the camera doesn't show us anything. There's no skill. The film-makers were too lazy to make that interesting or believable. She's ULTRA just like Ray Skywalker. There's no need to even consider she was ever at risk. There is nothing here. The only statement being made is "see, women can be tough too", but that's not remotely what the audience gets from this. No threat. No honor. No sacrifice. No need to explain. Just Uber Elf.

That is just shit storytelling, IMHO.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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So if you haven't followed the Cavill tragedy the last couple days, lemme catch you up. Henry left The Witcher a coupe weeks ago? because the woke writers had made the main character into a side show for their feminist characters. He'd had enough. He could fall back on Superman, after all. C'est domage for The Witcher fans who always loved the depth the character was written with and hated the writers' take on it. That's what you get when you hire writers who do not like the source material.

Now Warner Media has decided to go to an origin story for Superman (they're cutting $1.5B from their production budget) under James Gunn, meaning Cavill is out. Of all the stupid things DC has done to date, this may be the pinnacle, since Cavill draws are the only thing fans could count on from DC. That's over.

So one day later, Cavill has a new home. Amazon bought the rights to Warhammer 40,000, and Cavill is onboard.

I'm not exactly a 40k fan as the storyline is just a little too horrific and dystopian for me, and super-saturated in the most graphic violence. However, if they're going to turn it into a successful live action series, perhaps they'll find a way to tone it down a bit. So we'll see.

View: https://youtu.be/A_HljUo8Jjk
 
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