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KuruptU4Fun

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Man ya'll are ruthless, it's strange that people can't look past their fanboyism to be constructive of something when it comes to a critique. Can you not look at the original trilogy and argue that those need to be remade just from a dated graphical standpoint? Would Star Trek ever been able to stand on it's feet past TOS without cameo stories from the original cast? Could the "Kelvin" timeline movies been good without Spock?

I get that we all love our own little worlds, but people need to realize it's not their world, just their expectations of it. I've argued with people over the Netflix version of He-Man being crappy compared to the original. My argument being that none of the cartoons back in those days could depict violence due to parent groups voicing their objection. As such He-Man never attacks anyone with his sword, just knocks down crap with it and sticks it in the air. WTF do you think parents would have said if back in the 80's Teela was outed as gay in comparison to now? 80's cartoons were nothing but 23 minute toy advertisements and you know it. What memories you primarily tied to the IP was with your buddies in the living room battling whatever your favorite toy was compared to your friends. Hell I remember having GI Joe and Transformer battles LONG before Hasbro would have ever linked the two together into a "shared universe".

I personally fucking hate ELMO, not because of the squeaky annoying voice, but the fact that prior to him every Sesame Street character had a flaw and could then tell their story to children. Grover had OCD, Ernie had ADD and Oscar was anti-social. But you bring a 3 year old narcissist in pink fur and all of a sudden SS becomes ground zero for PBS turning a profit because it's all about Elmo from then on...
 
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Lorddarthvik

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Man ya'll are ruthless, it's strange that people can't look past their fanboyism to be constructive of something when it comes to a critique. Can you not look at the original trilogy and argue that those need to be remade just from a dated graphical standpoint? Would Star Trek ever been able to stand on it's feet past TOS without cameo stories from the original cast? Could the "Kelvin" timeline movies been good without Spock?

I get that we all love our own little worlds, but people need to realize it's not their world, just their expectations of it. I've argued with people over the Netflix version of He-Man being crappy compared to the original. My argument being that none of the cartoons back in those days could depict violence due to parent groups voicing their objection. As such He-Man never attacks anyone with his sword, just knocks down crap with it and sticks it in the air. WTF do you think parents would have said if back in the 80's Teela was outed as gay in comparison to now? 80's cartoons were nothing but 23 minute toy advertisements and you know it. What memories you primarily tied to the IP was with your buddies in the living room battling whatever your favorite toy was compared to your friends. Hell I remember having GI Joe and Transformer battles LONG before Hasbro would have ever linked the two together into a "shared universe".

I personally fucking hate ELMO, not because of the squeaky annoying voice, but the fact that prior to him every Sesame Street character had a flaw and could then tell their story to children. Grover had OCD, Ernie had ADD and Oscar was anti-social. But you bring a 3 year old narcissist in pink fur and all of a sudden SS becomes ground zero for PBS turning a profit because it's all about Elmo from then on...

You hate ELMO for making your show crap for the rest of it's life, yet a line before you argue that it's fine to shit in our ponds... I don't follow your logic, sorry.

They are our worlds because they sold it to us. Via cinema tickets, books, toys, merch...
Back in the day, they sold us a product , we loved it. Then they sold us another one, building upon the first, and another, and another, we loved em even more! It made us happy, enthusiastic, because they wanted us to be enthusiastic! In return we made the business thrive!
And now they want to sell us a new one that shits on the original product, tells us (the customers) we are bad people for liking the original product, and sometimes even literally killing the original product for the sake of selling the new one no matter how much we loved the OG, knowing that it's like a knofe in the back for us the customers.
The new one that is sometimes so different in every way, that unless it had the same name on it, no one would recognize it. And if we don't like it, we get cussed out and morality policed by the business selling said product, yet we are expected to bow down and just stfu and buy the next one as well.

In what world does anyone find this acceptable???

Even if you can't let go of this falsehood that it's just our expectations.. yes, those fucking matter! You run a business by satisfying your customers' expectations!
You did expect Sesame Street to have characters with flaws so it can be thought provoking and have a discussion about and they have something to overcome ... didn't you? So why pulling the same thin okay in other worlds??



As for Star Trek, Deep Space Nine came mostly after TOS and didn't need a single cameo after the first episode, even though they added a few along the way. They managed to change the formula just enough to stay in universe but make it fresh and interesting.
The original trilogy, whether Star Wars or LOTR, holds up just fine graphically, unless you can't live without 20 explosions and 4732897 lasers on screen per frame. I'm a CG artist and I love all the practical stuff cos it looks great and holds up, unlike the CG in EP1-3. Which is strange cos Jurassic Park, the OG, still holds up with it's horribly simple CG dinos. Those raptors in the kitchen were rendered at 640*480, yet I shit myself during that sequence to this day. I just watched it recently and unless you freeze frame it, it's perfectly good. Anyways, you can take an old movie and spruce it up if you just want to do graphics. See SW.

Want to make something different with the same thing? Something mature from kids stuff?
I could never care less about the XMen, apart from the first movie the rest is a snooze fest and I only liked the first one cos back then the emo chick was hot and her storyline wasn't bad either. I'd rather watch the first few episodes of SG1 for the 15th time than watch any xmen movie.
Except...
Logan!
I could rewatch that thing any day, as many times as my tear canals can handle the ending. That is a fucking great movie. Totally not in keeping with the themes and style of the otehr movies. Absolutely different, yet it is still in the same universe, with the same characters. It doesn't pop the universe bubble, it stays inside it.
They could've easily "subverted" our expectations like they do with the movies and shows we like to shit on here. They could've pulled a "Logan's a cuck and the teenage girl is smarter then Einstein, faster then the Flash, stronger then the Hulk, and is perfect in every way, because we say so", like they did with Rey. It would've been a flop, because it would've broken our expectations for the world they built, for the characters they built, for the product they have been selling us. But they didn't. . They didn't go on an ego trip and do self inserts of their priviliged self-loathing useless Californian lives like they did with Guyladriel. They respected the character, the setting, and our expectations. And they did put their message into it via the story and the characters in a natural , subtle way. Instead of telling us, the audience, how we are bad people, they told us that love, family, bravery, and selflessness has value. Things any good person knows to have value and unites us instead of separates us.
So they made a cult hit and a generally highly praised and one of if not the most beloved movies of that whole universe. (Unless you count Deadpool to be part of it which I don't)
It worked. Why is this so hard to grasp for some? It's not like it's some fucking high concept you need a social studies degree for....

Never seen sesame street or the HeMan cartoons, only the He Man movie. It was lame but fun as a kid, it could've used a bit more violence maybe but just a tad. It's a kids movie afterall.
You are right about the cartoons being toy ads, but those were some really cool and fun ads! Wish they sold the cats and plane from Top Cats, never seen one around here sadly. Love that F14esque plane!
 
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Shadow Reaper

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I don't think it's got anything to do with "fanboyism"or any of that. Both Henry Cavill and the fans signed on because they liked the content of the books and games. The show runners decided the books and games didn't feature female leads enough, and started taking the camera off Henry, by dumbing down his dialog and removing all the philosophical portions from the central character. Now you can call it narcissistic if you like, but Cavill let them know from the start he was in so long as the scripts were faithful to the source material, which he already loved, and when they decided to say "screw you", he left.

Neither the fans nor Cavill liked what the show runners were doing and they all have a right to leave as a result. And indeed, that looks like what we're going to see. 300,000 complaints is a LOT of complaints, by any standard.

Netflixs should have fired the show runners and gotten someone in who liked the source material and was willing to honor it rather than approach the project with some twisted form of social justice in mind. You can blame this all squarely on the mind virus. It is not mysogenistic to have thoughtful, conflicted, complex, heroic male characters. This is really the issue. Why should Cavill or the fans support a neutered, debased, superhero?
 
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Bambooza

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Man ya'll are ruthless, it's strange that people can't look past their fanboyism to be constructive of something when it comes to a critique. Can you not look at the original trilogy and argue that those need to be remade just from a dated graphical standpoint? Would Star Trek ever been able to stand on it's feet past TOS without cameo stories from the original cast? Could the "Kelvin" timeline movies been good without Spock?

I get that we all love our own little worlds, but people need to realize it's not their world, just their expectations of it. I've argued with people over the Netflix version of He-Man being crappy compared to the original. My argument being that none of the cartoons back in those days could depict violence due to parent groups voicing their objection. As such He-Man never attacks anyone with his sword, just knocks down crap with it and sticks it in the air. WTF do you think parents would have said if back in the 80's Teela was outed as gay in comparison to now? 80's cartoons were nothing but 23 minute toy advertisements and you know it. What memories you primarily tied to the IP was with your buddies in the living room battling whatever your favorite toy was compared to your friends. Hell I remember having GI Joe and Transformer battles LONG before Hasbro would have ever linked the two together into a "shared universe".

I personally fucking hate ELMO, not because of the squeaky annoying voice, but the fact that prior to him every Sesame Street character had a flaw and could then tell their story to children. Grover had OCD, Ernie had ADD and Oscar was anti-social. But you bring a 3 year old narcissist in pink fur and all of a sudden SS becomes ground zero for PBS turning a profit because it's all about Elmo from then on...

You do have valid points. The issue I agree with the most is not expanding on the world creation or telling new stories while maintaining the cannon as much as is possible. It's when writers take a world establishing story into a new media and change key features for no other reason then their personal touch and/or ideological objection to the source material. In so much its no longer true to its name, and while it should indeed be called something else at that point they try to claim its the same story and if you don't like it your <insert current wrong thing to be>. As much as I don't like the last three starwars movies, they sort of stayed within the bounds of the original world building telling a new story. Even Star trek mostly did this until they tried reimagining the original enterprise. Even Peter Jackson in his telling of the lord of the rings made modifications to the story but it was done in such a way to try and adapt it to the new media's limitations and not because he didn't like the source material.

For me it's both a bait and switch coupled with poor writing and or disliking of the source material which asks the question why even write a story in that world.

Your elmo example is great as it hints at the issue of poor writing coupled with a money grab from an established ip.
 
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KuruptU4Fun

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You hate ELMO for making your show crap for the rest of it's life, yet a line before you argue that it's fine to shit in our ponds... I don't follow your logic, sorry.
Because the former is my outlook on the general, the latter is my personal outlook, but logically this is what I see on the across the board over decades. Arguably PBS couldn't have survived solely on donors and pledges long term, plus Elmo's popularity was dictated by our kids interest and we had to buy into it for them, just like our parents did with our beloved universes.

They are our worlds because they sold it to us. Via cinema tickets, books, toys, merch...

Back in the day, they sold us a product , we loved it. Then they sold us another one, building upon the first, and another, and another, we loved em even more! It made us happy, enthusiastic, because they wanted us to be enthusiastic! In return we made the business thrive!

And now they want to sell us a new one that shits on the original product, tells us (the customers) we are bad people for liking the original product, and sometimes even literally killing the original product for the sake of selling the new one no matter how much we loved the OG, knowing that it's like a knofe in the back for us the customers.
The new one that is sometimes so different in every way, that unless it had the same name on it, no one would recognize it. And if we don't like it, we get cussed out and morality policed by the business selling said product, yet we are expected to bow down and just stfu and buy the next one as well.
Yes you're going to bow down to the next generation because their popular opinion rises thru their disposable income and subsequent purchases in comparison. People vote with their wallets and "objections" die with fast paced media coverage. What started as "your world" had to go thru media changes in order to advance the universe, did you like (or even read) every "Legacy" SW book? Were there good and bad ones, because I sure as shit remember there were. I also remember (Dark Tide series) that in the first chapter or two Chewie dies saving everyone else from an exploding planet. Which utterly destroyed me as a fan at the time, when Kylo killed Han I felt the exact same way and my son watched me cry when it happened in the theaters.

In what world does anyone find this acceptable???

Even if you can't let go of this falsehood that it's just our expectations.. yes, those fucking matter! You run a business by satisfying your customers' expectations!
You did expect Sesame Street to have characters with flaws so it can be thought provoking and have a discussion about and they have something to overcome ... didn't you? So why pulling the same thin okay in other worlds??
In that second sentence you use the word you, (and I get that) but you're making this personal, you did not progress any IP personally, it took a whole lot of people who all had different expectations and those expectations vary as a group. Thus expectations are expressed thru our wallets and we bought into it more than once thru movie tickets, VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray. When we bought those repeatedly the IP's benefited thru the mediums they were sold thru but so did the younger generations.

Never seen sesame street or the HeMan cartoons, only the He Man movie. It was lame but fun as a kid, it could've used a bit more violence maybe but just a tad. It's a kids movie afterall.
You are right about the cartoons being toy ads, but those were some really cool and fun ads! Wish they sold the cats and plane from Top Cats, never seen one around here sadly. Love that F14esque plane!
Dolph Lundgren's He-Man was a bastardization of the IP IMO, however factually it flopped monetarily and in reviews: 22%Rotten Tomatoes/ 5.3/10IMDb. It didn't help advance the IP obviously, there wasn't a second one and the IP as a whole was relegated back to comics in order to advance. In order to survive Marvel in the face of bankruptcy in the 90's they had to sell off Spider-man, X-Men and the Fantastic Four, their successes carried on the franchise in the long run, as did the sale to Disney as a whole.

To summarize, progressions of IP's require multi-generational appeal and support, and as such the medium has to change in several ways. Thus those older people with expectations couldn't have supported the IP as a whole over the decades.
 
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KuruptU4Fun

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You do have valid points. The issue I agree with the most is not expanding on the world creation or telling new stories while maintaining the cannon as much as is possible. It's when writers take a world establishing story into a new media and change key features for no other reason then their personal touch and/or ideological objection to the source material. In so much its no longer true to its name, and while it should indeed be called something else at that point they try to claim its the same story and if you don't like it your <insert current wrong thing to be>. As much as I don't like the last three starwars movies, they sort of stayed within the bounds of the original world building telling a new story. Even Star trek mostly did this until they tried reimagining the original enterprise. Even Peter Jackson in his telling of the lord of the rings made modifications to the story but it was done in such a way to try and adapt it to the new media's limitations and not because he didn't like the source material.

For me it's both a bait and switch coupled with poor writing and or disliking of the source material which asks the question why even write a story in that world.

Your elmo example is great as it hints at the issue of poor writing coupled with a money grab from an established ip.
But is that not what Disney did? Removed "Legacy" stories for the most part, only drawing from the source material in it's primary form? I read the books "Tales from Jabba's Palace" and "Tales of the Bounty Hunters" which included additional short stories for many of the characters seen in the main movie, it's an awesome read if you haven't done so already. Some stories are good and some suck but you still have to read the book as a whole to find out which are which and draw your own conclusions...

How do you expand an IP without doing some good stuff like Andor and some bad stuff like She-Hulk? Not everything is going to play well with audiences, BUT She-Hulk is not a major character in the MCU, neither was Cassian Andor which if we're being honest I don't remember in the legacy books, so your choice boils down to watch it or don't watch it, read the ratings prior and avoid spoilers after. You can't bait and switch people in cases like this, people have to accept that if you're starting something fresh, then everything is up for grabs and accept it as it is. One of the first legacy books "Splinter of the Minds Eye" is the best example I can give of a horrible book, though I'm sure there are many many others in the older SW universe. When they said they were going to start writing books about the Old Republic I pretty much refused to read any of them, only to be force fed Episodes 1-3 with crap like midi-chlorians which later got buried and I refuse to watch just relying on my own imagination growing up as to how the force worked.

Hell the first moment they started talking about Rouge One I had truly hoped they were actually going to pursue the path of the Rouge Squadron series of books. Boy was I shocked, didn't much like the movie but watched Andor and then gathered a bit more appreciation of it in a small way thanks to Cassian. That being the case I've heard that now Rouge Squadron has been shelved, to me those were some of my favorite books in the SWU.
 
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Shadow Reaper

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It's important to note the difference between the unique contributions and demands of each generation, from the woke mind virus. You'd be right to note feminism is in its third wave. You'd be wrong to think it has the kind of acceptance as first and second wave feminism. In the sixties and seventies Gloria Steinem and NOW burst onto the scene and the vast majority of Americans accepted what they had to say. However, third wave feminism under people like Mary Daly teaches women to hate and rage against the patriarchy, and as a result, third wave feminism is dead on arrival. The general public has rejected it just as it has all the woke mind virus. Less than 1/3 of women in the US identify as feminist, down from over 80% thirty years ago. This is not evolution, nor progress. It's a cycle of fixing and breaking things.

The need to deprecate all men as seen in things like RoP is not selling. The men are voting with their wallets and these things are dying. So there is no inevitable change toward progress. There is only change for bad or good. The question is whether the changes are good or not. The changes to SW were terrible--so bad in fact that it looks like the last three movies are being removed from cannon. Seems there are limits to how much you can screw with someone else's beloved stories.

The issue in viewing these things seems to me to be whether you see them as strictly linear progression or if you believe history is cyclical. Do you really believe in social evolution? I don't. I think history is cyclical. Strong men bring good times. Good times bring weak men. Weak men bring bad times. Bad times bring strong men. This generation is weak, and they're bringing bad times.

So what we come to is you can't really speak of these things without speaking of these things. You have to identify what killed RoP, and Captain Marvel, and so many other IPs suffering under the tyranny of the mind virus. I would venture to say the problem is one of an entire generation. In 1988, some do-gooder began to put pictures of abducted children on milk boxes, and an entire generation of women were literally scared into poor parenting. They birthed and nurtured the most narcissistic generation in human history. Make no mistake, it is the fault of the Boomers, what they did to their kids, refusing them unsupervised playtime and otherwise contributing to unsustainable fragility in their children. It's not their fault they need safe spaces, and counselling if someone says something wrong, and live in Mommy's basement until they're 45. It's their parents fault.

However, this is not the mind virus. It is only what made an entire generation susceptible to the mind virus. The woke virus itself is intelligent. It plans. It plots. It schemes. It makes victims of the weak and the young. That black element of human nature that strives for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity has been alive and well, and scheming since at least 600 BC. The things humanity rejected to form democracy, individual property rights, the rule of law, indeed all of Western Civilization--that sickly twisted spirit has come to devour your children. Their relative fragility has made them vulnerable to sickness just like this, and explains virtually everything we're discussing in this thread.

What so perverted Kathleen Kennedy that she needed to emasculate Luke Skywalker? What so compelled the RoP writers that they thought 90 lb elven women tossing around 300 lb of steel clad warrior would ever have been entertaining, or even believable? How could anyone ever think a female 007 a good idea? That is a MIND VIRUS, a 2,600 year old meme of hatred and destruction that this generation seems wholly incapable of resisting. It calls out as easy won virtue to be sure. It presents as '"justice", and it is anything but. And you know what this means. We saw it in the early 1940's. This world is going to burn, until bad times bring good men.
 

Vavrik

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There is nothing new under the sun.
Or apparently on screen.

Make no mistake, it is the fault of the Boomers, what they did to their kids, refusing them unsupervised playtime and otherwise contributing to unsustainable fragility in their children. It's not their fault they need safe spaces, and counselling if someone says something wrong, and live in Mommy's basement until they're 45. It's their parents fault.
And don't give me all the "It's boomer's fault" crap. Becoming an adult is about taking responsibility for yourself. It has always been that way. If you blame the generation before you, you're not taking responsibility, you're passing the buck.
 

Shadow Reaper

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There is nothing new under the sun.
Or apparently on screen.


And don't give me all the "It's boomer's fault" crap. Becoming an adult is about taking responsibility for yourself. It has always been that way. If you blame the generation before you, you're not taking responsibility, you're passing the buck.
I’m blaming my generation. My argument is based upon the excellent work of social psychologist Jonathan Haidt, who actually traced the current generation’s fragility and shockingly high suicide rates to the advent of the Amber Alert on milk cartons, and the claims by leadership trainers like Simon Sinek. You can view summeries of these online if you like. I’ve posted the links before. For Haidt search “the Coddling of the American Mind” and for Sinek search his name plus “Millenials”. You can find them both on youtube. Both sources agree that the problems we see in the current generation are the direct result of a “broken parenting model”, and you can’t blame people for what was done to them as children.

These sources don’t even unpack the severe repercussions of birth control and public charity destroying the family unit and removing fathers from the home. This is certainly another contributor, but helicopter and bulldozer parenting coddles kids regardless if Pops is around.

You can’t blame kids who never had unsupervised playtime that they never learned proper conflict resolution on the playground. When parents hover, their kids don’t develop proper toughness and end up weak and afraid, crying for safe spaces and freedom from rather than of speech. Good times make weak men.

Have you watched many vids of kids on college campuses attacking free speech? They literally scream “you’re killing us!” if people voice opinions they disagree with. No joke, this is a direct result of those milk box alerts.

I highly recommend Haidt and Sinek’s work.
 
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Bambooza

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There is nothing new under the sun.
Or apparently on screen.


And don't give me all the "It's boomer's fault" crap. Becoming an adult is about taking responsibility for yourself. It has always been that way. If you blame the generation before you, you're not taking responsibility, you're passing the buck.
Na it's Aristotle fault!
 
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