Would you pay more for TEST Products in SC

[Xist]

Am I allowed to wack our Glorious Leader over the head with a wet noodle?

What if Jack is able to sell to Abe, Bob, Charlie, Denise, [skip a few], Yasmine, and Zach because he offers a discount, and Henry sells next to nothing, because he doesn't offer a discount?

Problem with the asteroid made of gold is that it's gonna cost a lot to maintain that fleet of Javelins. Dang things. But I like that they're going to be there - enough that I'd feel compelled to help pay for them to be there, in which case I want to be Jack in MY example, who leverages the tools of business to make himself into the WalMart of Mining.

In your example you must be making the assumption that Henry is selling for too high a price, eg above market price.

By definition, market price is the price you can actually sell as much as you want at to the market...

This hypothetical situation you discuss cannot happen... That is the entire point of using the market price - because you can actually sell at that price.

I agree if Henry is charging very high prices nobody will want to buy from him - but ONLY if he is significantly above market price. AT market price, Henry will have no problem at all selling all his product and so all that happens in your example is Jack makes less money than he should.

 

[Xist]

Nah I don't think so. I tried to give a contra example or a deeper insight in your example trying to show that it might have been legitimate to give that 10%. If you would only look in tje transactions you might be right but you don't know the background. For example the miner would need 20-30 minutes to go from his site to somewhere he can sell his stuff. While if he had continued to mine could colect lets say another 200-300 worth of ore. So he even would have made plus on the deal with the 10% discount on his wares. Since hauling it back would cost time and fuel which would have cut in his earnings.

It seems like you are essentially saying that miners should mine and haulers should haul, and you're right.

In your example the hauler is getting 10% of the sales price by allowing the miner to work continuously without stopping to haul.

If that is an economic advantage to both players then yes, both players should do it. That's not about a discount so much as it is about paying the hauler for hauling.

 

[Thalstan]

Yep.

I like where you guys are going, but the profits we will be making will not come from selling things to ourselves at cheaper prices.

The profits come when an asteroid made of pure gold is discovered in dangerous Vanduul space. Only an active org with 200 mining ships ready to deploy, and 28 Javelins to protect them can do and quickly grab that chunk of rock before anybody else can mobilize.

How we make our money will depend on how we utilize our assets to our greatest advantage.

Jack selling to Bob at a 5% discount is not how money is made! Think bigger! Not smaller!

Montoya is correct in his statement and I was wrong in my *deleted* part of my post above.

First Example:
I mine and produce ore. When I am running flat out, I make 50 UEC per unit after production costs (number makes the math easier) Fuel runs me 10,000 UEC/run of 384 SCU of cargo. Fuel for a Hull B (same cargo capacity as the Orion) is 5000/run. Escorts costs 200,000/hour (same for the Hull B) all said.
I can mine 38400 units every 30 minutes
However, it's a 30 minute run from the mine, back to the station/warehouse, unload the ore, and then come back to the mine. That means for every hour I play, I am mining 30 minutes. Now, he can get 2 runs an hour with his hull's improved cargo handling mechanism.

Normally, I make 1,920,000/hour-10,000-200,000 = 1,710,000 UEC per hour.

How, if I was just mining, I remove the fuel costs, but still keep the escorts so my costs/hour only go down by 10,000. However, my mining round the hour, my UEC/hour jumps to 3,840,000/hour-200,000= 3,640,000 UEC/hour. If I split the difference, I can pay the hauler 532,500/trip. That means the hauler makes 532,500-10,000-100,000=422,500/trip out to me. That hauler could make 845,000/hour and employ more escorts giving another 200,000 UEC/hour to test pilots.

Now, that means I haul in 3,840,000-1,065,000 =2,775,000UEC/hour. Now, before everyone gets up in arms about how I am shorting the hauler....
I have a crew of 4 that I am giving equal shares (remember, this is profit after ship running expenses). So that means I am making 693,750/hour, as is everyone on my ship. So the hauler will actually make more than I could since the Hull B is a 1 person ship. So, by making a reduction in my price by having the buyer come to me, I make more/hour as does everyone else but the escorts who got a flat fee no matter if I made money or not.

Second example:
There is usually a difference in the buy and sell prices or a commodity. In some markets, the difference is very small. Maybe 10 cents/share between what someone wants to pay for a stock, and what someone wants to sell it for. If they meet, then a transaction occurs and a different price appears. In SC, the price gaps are pretty big at a station. For some there may be a 10-20 UEC gap/unit between what you can buy a product for, and what you can sell it for.

So, if I mine some Gold and haul it to the station, I might have a selling point of 15 UEC/unit. Another Test member is hauling Gold from that station, to another, where he can sell it for 40 a unit. However, the station I am selling to is selling to him at 25/unit.

We can both benefit if I sell directly to him at the station for 20/unit, giving me 5 more UEC/unit profit. He can then move that gold to station two where he makes 5 UEC/unit more. So if I bring in a load of 40000 units, we both make 200,000 more UEC. This profit comes out of the NPC station cut, so both of us benefit. So I am selling to him above market rates, but he is buying below market rates.

math fixed

 

[Vavrik]

In your example you must be making the assumption that Henry is selling for too high a price, eg above market price.

By definition, market price is the price you can actually sell as much as you want at to the market...

I made only the assumption of what I said. Henry is selling without offering a discount. Jack is offering a discount. And that's not the definition of a market price. That topic is far more involved than what we're discussing here, but at no time does it involve selling as much as you want into a market. Part of the definition is in the post above by @Thalstan .

And this is totally aside to the question, which is [SIC] would you consider selling at a discount to Test Squadron members? Not a loss, but a discount. There's a difference.
In my case, I would definitely, and the reason would be that I am returning to the community that I belong to. Other side of the coin is, would you consider buying from Test Squadron members, even if there wasn't a discount? Yes. For the same reason.

 

[Thalstan]

Oh, before people also complain about the hauler making more than the miners...
1) miners are paid on what they produce. We blow up, no one gets paid and the owner gets a bill. If I was paying a flat fee, I would be making a lot more but risk losing a lot more money if we are hit 10 minutes in to our 2 hours of mining I hired for.
2) the hauler is taking a LOT more risk. If the miner gets hit, they lose time and insurance. They lose some escort fees as well, but contracts will vary. Once the ore is in the hands of the hauler, the miner is paid. She has sold the goods to the hauler. If the hauler does not make it back to base, that's their issue, not the miners. Putting in perspective. Say it costs 10/unit to produce and as I said earlier, I can get 50 uec/unit profit (selling at 60). 532500/38400= 13.87 or so UEC/unit of a discout. So they are buying from me at 46.13 UEC/unit. That means if they are interdicted/captured/destroyed/etc. they stand to lose 1,771,500 UEC of capitol (assuming no insurance). That means they need to survive 4 out of 5 runs to be profitable. If they are really lucky, they stand to make a lot of money. If they are unlucky, they can lose a ton too. Obviously, if the ore was being mined in a very risky area, the miner will probably need to sweeten the deal a bit. The idea is that everyone makes the most money, not one person does at the expense of others.

 

[Bambooza]

** wall of text removed, but worth reading so go read it **

Great examples, does make me wonder if it wouldn't be more beneficial to secure the full supply chain and then split the profits fairly among the participants.

 

[maynard]

it all comes down to the credits per hour you can make while doing something you enjoy

min-maxing, i.e. specializing and investing for efficiency, will happen for sure

in EVE Online lots of people enjoy being Space Truckers

they buy the biggest ships and max them out, then compete with one another for cargoes

so hauling pays very little compared to mining or manufacturing or trading, which aren't as popular

if everyone made purely rational decisions, the various occupations would evolve toward equal pay due to supply and demand

but that will never happen because

it's a game, not a fucking job

 

[BUTUZ]

it's a game, not a fucking job

 

[Sethious]

Yep.

I like where you guys are going, but the profits we will be making will not come from selling things to ourselves at cheaper prices.

The profits come when an asteroid made of pure gold is discovered in dangerous Vanduul space. Only an active org with 200 mining ships ready to deploy, and 28 Javelins to protect them can do and quickly grab that chunk of rock before anybody else can mobilize.

How we make our money will depend on how we utilize our assets to our greatest advantage.

Jack selling to Bob at a 5% discount is not how money is made! Think bigger! Not smaller!

But how do I get my entire fleet there to secure it???? MINIONS!!!!!

 

[Sraika]

But how do I get my entire fleet there to secure it???? MINIONS!!!!!

Yes, commander? You called?

 

[Bambooza]

Some how I think these would be less dangerous then fellow test members being crew mates.

 

[Talonsbane]

Some how I think these would be less dangerous then fellow test members being crew mates.

Not if you introduced them to the glories of alcohol.

 

[Bambooza]

One has to wonder if they haven't already been introduced to the glories of alcohol or at lease their mother was.

 

[Talonsbane]

I have no intelligent way to dispute that given how they are. Good call.

 

[Bambooza]

I have no intelligent way to dispute that given how they are. Good call.

That's not how the Internet works. Stop breaking it.

 

[Talonsbane]

:metal:

 

[Plagueis]

I'd be more inclined to work out trade deals and black market contracts with TEST members and sell higher to non testies.

 

[Bruttle]

An org member that needs help? I'd be happy to. However, it won't come under the guise of a discount. It will be in the form of "sure, I can help an org run. Let me grab a ship." or "Hell yea. I'll come man a turret for you." It sure wouldn't be a 8% org discount, "Let me break out my calculator." If I'm going to help someone, it will actually be help.

I don't want a discount because it usually comes with a hidden cost. I don't want to pay extra either. I just want a fair price for a fair product. Everyone seems to have become obsessed with discounts and gimmicks. The truth of the matter is, the purchaser NEVER benefits from these things. The scale always tips to the side of the seller.

Five minutes of research will unveil a massive list of sales techniques that sound like a great deal. Yet every one is designed to benefit the seller. It cracks me up that people fall for it by the millions every day. You want an applicable example? Try a FTP game. Want another? Look at Amazon. Their "sale price 20% off" is actually just 20% off the msrp. Look around and you will find tons of stores selling at the same price without a sale going on.

Why would I pull that same bullshit on my org mates? Help should not be convoluted. It should be simple.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

...Everyone seems to have become obsessed with discounts and gimmicks. The truth of the matter is, the purchaser NEVER benefits from these things. The scale always tips to the side of the seller.

Five minutes of research will unveil a massive list of sales techniques that sound like a great deal. Yet every one is designed to benefit the seller. It cracks me up that people fall for it by the millions every day. You want an applicable example? Try a FTP game. Want another? Look at Amazon. Their "sale price 20% off" is actually just 20% off the msrp. Look around and you will find tons of stores selling at the same price without a sale going on.

Why would I pull that same bullshit on my org mates? Help should not be convoluted. It should be simple.

I recently witnessed a company selling a £10 item at £40. Their gimmick was "50% off your first order!" - a friend caved and bought, finding it was indeed worth £10. The company then sent a "Thanks so much for choosing us, have another 50% off your next order!" email as soon as they had finished placing the order. They didn't bother but I could see a "Lets make it three in a row, 40% off your next order!" email down the road if they had.

I feel sad for the people who spent the full £40 on an item that was always intended to be sold at a discount. What does that company do then? Send them a Free item to say thanks for spending 100% more than they needed to? Or do they just pocket the extra as a bonus?

It's a crummy business model. Although I'd be happy to help my Testies out eventually it'd come to overcharging someone... I might just stick to the commodity trade-routes, Player-to-player trading seems fraught with beef to me.

:slight_smile:

 

[Bambooza]

I recently witnessed a company selling a £10 item at £40. Their gimmick was "50% off your first order!" - a friend caved and bought, finding it was indeed worth £10. The company then sent a "Thanks so much for choosing us, have another 50% off your next order!" email as soon as they had finished placing the order. They didn't bother but I could see a "Lets make it three in a row, 40% off your next order!" email down the road if they had.

I feel sad for the people who spent the full £40 on an item that was always intended to be sold at a discount. What does that company do then? Send them a Free item to say thanks for spending 100% more than they needed to? Or do they just pocket the extra as a bonus?

It's a crummy business model. Although I'd be happy to help my Testies out eventually it'd come to overcharging someone... I might just stick to the commodity trade-routes, Player-to-player trading seems fraught with beef to me.

:slight_smile:

So you're saying your buddy over paid by £10's?