Guns. Good or Bad?

Crymsan · Nov 14, 2017

I appreciate this topic has run for a while and I have had time to think about it. Clearly guns are not good or evil that's down to the user. I do however think that the balance of the planet man vs animal changed enormously with the invention of the gun. The mass slaughter of animals, trophy hunters or whatever I do not think its a good thing. I can appreciate the art of hunting stalking and so on but its just down to numbers.

Clearly on the scale of people killing each other it is just one of many tools invented (see cars for instance, terrorist are showing how well that works).

Overall there are many ways to kill each other and chemical warfare or germs etc would be much worse in a nutters hands. I do also think that where generally a few low lifes die society is not exactly stressed about it.

So although I voted no to guns, for those intent on killing they would find something else to use anyway so not sure it matters.

Phil · Nov 14, 2017

Deroth said:
Additionally, if your criteria for whether something should be illegal is determined by people posting videos of someone being stupid (and dangerous) with it then feet, bikes, skateboard, inline skates, motor vehicles, irons, couches, and a multitude of other items also need to be made illegal (many of these actually have a much higher annual death rate than firearms.)

This is exactly whats wrong with this country, are seriously comparing assault weapons with bicycles? Skate boards and skates? Jesus christ this is why you can't have a intelligent argument with anyone in America, you are comparing apples with nuclear bombs. You brought up motor vehicles, big mistake, we are required by law to take driving courses and pass both written and physical tests to be able to operate a motor vehicle as well as own insurance to cover the costs of damage, disabilities or even death in the event of an accident.

All that is required to own a firearm is a heart beat and FOID card that anyone without a felony can obtain, no training courses, no insurance required in case of death or injury we simply hand out guns to anyone and every one. Further more the loop holes that were used in Columbine..... yes the 1997 Columbine shooting used gun shows to circumvent the procedure and are still being used today 20 years later.

Again if you can't even have a discussion about firearms without some moron comparing guns to bicycles then what is the point, I am literally still shaking my head that someone actually compared a gun, an assault rifle to someone on a skate board.......

Phil · Nov 14, 2017

Crymsan said:
I appreciate this topic has run for a while and I have had time to think about it. Clearly guns are not good or evil that's down to the user. I do however think that the balance of the planet man vs animal changed enormously with the invention of the gun. The mass slaughter of animals, trophy hunters or whatever I do not think its a good thing. I can appreciate the art of hunting stalking and so on but its just down to numbers.

Clearly on the scale of people killing each other it is just one of many tools invented (see cars for instance, terrorist are showing how well that works).

Overall there are many ways to kill each other and chemical warfare or germs etc would be much worse in a nutters hands. I do also think that where generally a few low lifes die society is not exactly stressed about it.

So although I voted no to guns, for those intent on killing they would find something else to use anyway so not sure it matters.

People need to stop making this an argument about guns, its not just guns its about assault weapons, its about modifications, its about who has access and who should have access to them. I and no liberal has ever said take away all your guns this is rhetoric the NRA and the right use to fire up the base. This is about the types of weapons, modifications and how civilians have access to assault weapons that no one has a need or use for outside of pure enjoyment or being abused. No one needs 100 round magazines, armor piercing rounds, body armor, BUMP STOCKS...... no hunter needs an AR 15 to hunt and no one needs 30 round magazines to kill a deer, these are purely for personal enjoyment period they serve no purpose in home defense, hunting or anything else outside of competition or sport shooting.

I will be honest I don't care if you own an AR 15 I have more issues with the modifications surrounding them but I get tired of the thin excuses surrounding them, the 2nd Amendment only states very loosely I might add that you have the right to own a firearm its up to the government to determine which firearms are to be obtained that is why we passed laws in the 1930s about full auto, sawed off shotguns and grenades, this is also why you don't see people with tanks in their backyards or rocket launchers they should not be owned by civilians they were weapons designed for war just as assault weapons were.

So please stop making common sense gun laws some sort of anti-gun "take away all your guns" rhetoric its flat out not true and nothing more than the NRA and gun nuts misrepresenting the facts and truth.

Adiran · Nov 14, 2017

oh my... can we not get me started on this topic please... i'm going to pretend i did not see this post or most of the replies and walk away from my computer now... /facepalm

if you want my views pm me. but be ready to hear what you may not want to. i've gotten in trouble for hurting peoples feelings before on topics i feel much less strongly about than this one. so you have been warned if you do pm me.

Jolly_Green_Giant · Nov 14, 2017

I don't understand why I can't have a 105 Howitzer in my backyard. Something needs to change.

Deroth · Nov 14, 2017

@Phil You are exactly why, unlike the rest of this thread, conversations like this devolve.

You make easily to verify as incorrect statements then accuse anyone that disagrees with you as being a nut or worse.

You completely miss the point of an analogy while conflating completely different things with each other as if they're the exact same things.

Assault Weapon: Legally means ANY object used as a weapon to commit an assault, to include hands, feet, knives, vehicles, pipes, chains, and anything else someone can think of to use.

Assault Rifle: First developed by Germany in 1943, is a light weight rifle that is capable of selective-fire (meaning can be set to fire multiple rounds when the trigger is held) and fires intermediate cartridges (varmint rounds, longer range than a pistol round but typically insufficient to hunt dear.) When first developed it was due to the issue in which the majority of troops were found to be intentionally firing over the heads of the enemy even when they had a clear shot then surrendering if they ran out of ammo before one of the minority of troops managed to kill the enemy. By giving them any assault rifle they were able to effectively suppress the enemy while the warriors maneuvered to kill the enemy.

AR stands for ArmaLite, who also has made:

AR-1: bolt-action sniper rifle
AR-5: .22 bolt-action survival rifle
AR-9: shotgun
AR-13: anti-aircraft machine gun
AR-24: pistol

...just to name a few to clarify the naming.

The AR-10 was first developed as a Battle Rifle (basically a glorified dear hunting rifle) when ArmaLite thought that is what the next military rifle contract would be for. Everybody was surprised when the .223 Remington was specifically called for due to the long history of it being used for varmint hunting. So ArmaLite shrunk all parameters of the AR-10 from using .308 Remington to .223 Remington to create the AR-15. After the AR-15 won some variations and enhancements were required to create the M-16.

So your conflation of ARs with Assault Rifles and Assault Weapons is like conflating tap water, rivers, and oceans as all being one in the same and completely interchangeable.

Deroth · Nov 14, 2017

As for the so-called loopholes, these are also untrue.

Columbine:
You really shouldn't get your information from Michael Moore as he consistently proven to be a hack that pushes blatant lies for kickbacks.
Anyone under the age of 18 cannot purchase a firearm in the USA, but their close family members can then they can gift it to them, but are still legally responsible until the child turns 18. When their family purchase a firearm they are checked against the NCIC, and if they're I there or live with someone that is they are flagged and blocked from purchasing.
Any other way for someone under 18 in the USA to get a firearm is already illegal.

VT Shooting:
His psychologist wanted to report him for being an imminent threat, but local privacy laws and policies blocked this from NCIC due to 'not being imminent enough'.
When purchasing firearms online there are laws already making it illegal to purchase them from outside the country, plus laws already state that they have to be shipped through a licensed gun dealer (Class III) to another licensed gun dealer, who is then legally required to run the purchaser through NCIC. Not following this process is illegal.

Sandy Hook:
He had a history of whenever he stopped taking his medicating he became more irrational and violent each time. His mother reported him to the authorities and attempted to get him detained on a psych hold pending a Court order psych eval. However, based off State and local laws she was informed he wasn't violent enough or imminent enough of a threat for them to legally get involved, instead telling her to kick him out, change the locks, and get a restraining order. She was doing this when he entered her house while she was asleep, murdered her, then stole her firearms.

Texas Church Shooting:
Due to his history of violence and his domestic violence conviction,
it was illegal for him to purchase or own firearms but the Air Force forgot to report him to NCIC, so gun stores had no idea.

Wolfy · Nov 14, 2017

DragonHeart said:
You must have missed the recent mass murders, or just don't watch the news.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/11/06/ar-15-style-rifles-common-among-mass-shootings/838283001/

Hey guess what, automatic rifles are not mentioned anywhere in the article! :smile: Handguns, like I said, are mentioned at least 5 times, possibly more though.

Deroth · Nov 14, 2017

NaffNaffBobFace said:
So, as I said:

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Mental heath issues, psychosis, creeps, freaks, losers trying to put their name in the history books - all of them can get their hands on guns right now, no you are not safe if you have a gun they have a gun too, no one is safe...

People are the problem, people kill people guns don't kill people. Remove people from the problem and the problem goes away. People will not give up their guns, so guns that don't need people will have to look after people.

Automated Autonomous Turrets programmed to shoot people trying to shoot people - People kill people guns stop people killing people. Turret Networks in populated areas and singular installations in places that have high risk of gun crime like concerts and above the counters of convenience stores etc. Gun crime would halve after the first year, be a third of it's former self after two and could drop as low as 10% of what is experienced right now in just three years.

The poll agrees 74.7% to 25.3% Guns are good. Trust in Gun, don't leave your safety in the hands of other people - allow Gun to look after you.

In Gun We Trust.

If there isn't already a movie or book for that idea there needs to be as it could make for a very interesting premise.

Joehockey · Nov 14, 2017

Crymsan said:
I appreciate this topic has run for a while and I have had time to think about it. Clearly guns are not good or evil that's down to the user. I do however think that the balance of the planet man vs animal changed enormously with the invention of the gun. The mass slaughter of animals, trophy hunters or whatever I do not think its a good thing. I can appreciate the art of hunting stalking and so on but its just down to numbers.

Clearly on the scale of people killing each other it is just one of many tools invented (see cars for instance, terrorist are showing how well that works).

Overall there are many ways to kill each other and chemical warfare or germs etc would be much worse in a nutters hands. I do also think that where generally a few low lifes die society is not exactly stressed about it.

So although I voted no to guns, for those intent on killing they would find something else to use anyway so not sure it matters.

One of the first ways I was introduced to guns was my grandpa. He taught me that with golf clubs it doesn't matter what stick you're using, it matters whats at the end of the stick making the swing. Meaning just because you go out and buy a new shiny set of clubs, doesn't mean you'll have any talent or that it will fix an issue you're having on the course. He used that same explanation in ways when talking about guns. He said, it doesn't matter what gun you're using, if you disrespect it or use it incorrectly, the damage will have already been done. Buying different guns wont change the fact that you use them with the wrong mentality or a lack of respect.

DragonHeart · Nov 14, 2017

What the hell, another shooting.
There are some serious mental health issues people need addressing.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shooting-at-california-school-leaves-at-least-three-dead/news-story/5f585a3fd0049e2882b660222448f744

RoughGalaxy · Nov 15, 2017

personal opinion. people should have to at LEAST go through the same level of training and scrutiny to get a gun, as they do, a drivers license.

Michael · Nov 15, 2017

I actually think a good education on gun safety
(Some kind of) Responsibility for what happens with your gun (if you let you gun lying around you should be definitly responsible for what happens with it)
Some options to avoid those responsibiltys (like properly secured gun storages to avoid stealing, fingerprint secured gun handles)
should solve the most problems with guns
If you solve some major social problems too everything should be fine

Blind Owl · Nov 15, 2017

CrudeSasquatch said:
@Blind Owl Likes this

I do like this @CrudeSasquatch

Phil · Nov 29, 2017

Deroth said:
@Phil You are exactly why, unlike the rest of this thread, conversations like this devolve.

You make easily to verify as incorrect statements then accuse anyone that disagrees with you as being a nut or worse.

You completely miss the point of an analogy while conflating completely different things with each other as if they're the exact same things.

Assault Weapon: Legally means ANY object used as a weapon to commit an assault, to include hands, feet, knives, vehicles, pipes, chains, and anything else someone can think of to use.

Assault Rifle: First developed by Germany in 1943, is a light weight rifle that is capable of selective-fire (meaning can be set to fire multiple rounds when the trigger is held) and fires intermediate cartridges (varmint rounds, longer range than a pistol round but typically insufficient to hunt dear.) When first developed it was due to the issue in which the majority of troops were found to be intentionally firing over the heads of the enemy even when they had a clear shot then surrendering if they ran out of ammo before one of the minority of troops managed to kill the enemy. By giving them any assault rifle they were able to effectively suppress the enemy while the warriors maneuvered to kill the enemy.

AR stands for ArmaLite, who also has made:

AR-1: bolt-action sniper rifle

AR-5: .22 bolt-action survival rifle

AR-9: shotgun

AR-13: anti-aircraft machine gun

AR-24: pistol

...just to name a few to clarify the naming.

The AR-10 was first developed as a Battle Rifle (basically a glorified dear hunting rifle) when ArmaLite thought that is what the next military rifle contract would be for. Everybody was surprised when the .223 Remington was specifically called for due to the long history of it being used for varmint hunting. So ArmaLite shrunk all parameters of the AR-10 from using .308 Remington to .223 Remington to create the AR-15. After the AR-15 won some variations and enhancements were required to create the M-16.

So your conflation of ARs with Assault Rifles and Assault Weapons is like conflating tap water, rivers, and oceans as all being one in the same and completely interchangeable.

I never said AR stood for Assault Rifle, show me once where I said that? I know it means ArmaLite I know the history of the weapon it was designed for war and that is exactly what I said, the M4 and M16 are direct variants of that weapon, they were created for one single purpose and that was to kill human beings in a time of war, the original term came from the The term assault rifle is generally attributed to Adolf Hitler, who for propaganda purposes used the German word "Sturmgewehr" (which translates to "storm rifle" or "assault rifle"), as the new name for the MP43, subsequently known as the Sturmgewehr 44 or StG 44.

Over the years there has been arguments as to what constitutes an assault weapon or an assault rifle both have different meanings by law and by the public, the ATF even now is arguing to change them to sporting rifles because so many people use them, again my main argument is not with the weapons themselves its how easily they can be modified and simple they are to use its what makes them so deadly and it was and still is the main reason their variants are still being used today by our military.

I could argue all day long about guns killing people and why making these weapons so easily available to the public is wrong on so many levels, tell the 500 people in Vegas why the bump fire mods were not illegal because the ATF said they were ok not Obama btw the ATF signed off on those modifications, how about the 100 round drum magazine the kid in the batman theatre had?

You can hide behind your wall of letters and pretend this country does not have a gun problem but the countless bodies of innocent men, women and yes children tell the world another story, in the end I don't have to do anything but let the body count keep going up my argument is made by the dead and the families of the dead every day unfortunately in this gun nut country where people put more priority on owning toys than saving lives it falls on deaf ears like yours.

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