I m missing something?

[Firen]

Hello testies,

I have joined the star citizen adventure since junary.
I m having a blast so far even if i play a little less (i cant wait to actualy have real goals in the game).
And récently i finaly managed to participate in the combat flight training for my first time, my ass hurt a little but it was realy a trainer.

As i got my finger into the funding mechanic of CIG i realised that the mustang alpha wich i got with my package wasnt realy usefull spécialy for transport mission. So i puted a little more monay to CCU to an avenger titan (just for the hold and it look so cool). At this moment, i couldnt stop to think that CIG intentionnaly build this syteme to encourage backers to put more monay on the table, but oh well what was 20$ anyway.
Then i started to think that it would be awesome to actually have a real fighter ship and i couldnt resist the urge of getting a sabre after testing it in the AC with REC. With the help of my fellow testies, i got one for 170$. As for financial statu, that wasnt terrible, most likely a little pleasure i could allow myself without harming the family budget.
The Vulcan sales came in and i was like : "that s ok i will get that in the game"
The 100i cames out and i spent 50$ just to get a cool starter with LTI (just to feel safer when the game launch in case i m in trouble with uec incomes). What was 50$ in my budget, not much well i could fill my car with gaz with this amount just to go to work you know?
Then i started to think that this avenger hold wasnt that great for merchantship, spécialy since my monthly subsription gave me access to an aquila for few month, and started to look to CCU it to a cutlass, then the hercule sales came out...
I was like,: "I NEED THAT" and then i started to look for a way to buy that C2.
That s when my job (i m an accountant manager spécialised in financial managment, cost studys and financial analysis) grabbed firmly my feets and anchored them deep in the ground. I have to put food ont he table.

Then i started to analyse all those ships sales and i cam to realise something:

* You only do pledge, you dont buy anything.
* You pay VAT because CIG is a commercial business and they have taxe because they promise you a final product for your donation aka the game (and nothing else).
* There is no garanty to receive the game. Chris roberts could just announce one day " thanks guys for your support but we couldnt make it." even worse they could give us some half finished product and just say that this is the most they could do.
* Ships will be aviable into the game and some with probably little effort.
* They calls them ships sales but it s falacious ! it s a raising funds opération. Maybe CIG should rename it accordingly? As i see it, they creat various pledge and associate a spécifique goodies with them. Like when you make a donnation for 100$ to a charity and they give you a little keychain as a thanks (you actualy dont buy the keychain)
* There is alot of drama about LTI, but based on the fact that you can only use one ship at a time, and the fact that insurance wont be that bad to begin with. well what is the drama about again?
* Backers seems to believe that the only way to get ships is via ship sales............... WTF that came from? As soon as the planet Arccorp become aviable we are supposed to be able to buy ships in game (still in alpha though).
* Imagine the drama when players who gave CIG 500$ for a ship and finaly cant play it before a player who didnt pledge anything past the base game package but plays 12 hours a day?

I tryed to voice my opinions on spectrum but i got bashed continuously.

So i ask you my comrades did i misunderstood something ?

 

[Sintha]

I don't think you missed anything. Backing an unfinished product is a risk.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with grinding your way to big ships or buying them for cash. If I bought a ship and someone earned it makes my experience easier but I'm not diminished because someone reached the same goal in a different way.

 

[marcsand2]

And récently i finaly managed to participate in the combat flight training for my first time, my ass hurt a little but it was realy a trainer.

Hey!!! You also shot me down at least once :grin:

* You only to pledge, you dont buy anything.

correct

They calls them ships sales but it s falacious ! it s a raising funds opération. Maybe CIG should rename it accordingly? As i see it, they creat various pledge and associate a spécifique goodies with them. Like when you make a donnation for 100$ to a charity and they give you a little keychain as a thanks (you actualy dont buy the keychain)

Well, actually, the thank you is that you can use those ships right now, even when you can't buy them in-game... yet

* Backers seems to believe that the only way to get ships is via ship sales............... WTF that came from? As soon as the planet Arccorp become aviable we was supposed to be able to buy ships in game.

Not yet. I play since february 2016. Either I had to grind REC and rent ships, only usable in AC, or pledge and get access to better ships as a thank you.

* Ships will be aviable into the game and some with probably little effort.

The only question remains... how long will it take before the game is ready and how much effort will it cost to earn it. Right now you can rent a Super Hornet, 16.500 REC for 7 days. That is 2357 / day. In game with a bounty hunting mission or a patrol mission you can earn 340 (or something like that) aUEC. It would take you 7 missions to earn 1 days rent, if you don't have to repair, rearm or refuel. There will be a price difference between renting or buying.
Also will there be balancing, so above numbers will change.

 

[Vavrik]

You raise some very good points by the way, that others are prone to ignore, though they shouldn't. I just wanted to expand on the two points above.

* Imagine the drama when players who gave CIG 500$ for a ship and finaly cant play it before a player who didnt pledge anything past the base game package but plays 12 hours a day?

In the first case, someone who gave CIG $500 for a ship, and can't play it when someone with a base package plays 12 hours a day shouldn't happen, because everyone has to have a base package. So what about the case when someone has upgraded their only ship to a $500 ship, and it is not available to play: CIG has been using loaner ships to fill that gap. It's a pretty good model, because often it results in having two ships. This means there is no reason for the person not to be able to play.

* They calls them ships sales but it s falacious ! it s a raising funds opération. Maybe CIG should rename it accordingly? As i see it, they creat various pledge and associate a spécifique goodies with them. Like when you make a donnation for 100$ to a charity and they give you a little keychain as a thanks (you actualy dont buy the keychain)

This point is probably more important, it touches on a legal issue. I can answer from a Entrepreneurs perspective, but I am not a lawyer, just saying.
These are pledges, toward a fundraising operation. CIG has been clear about that, it is presented to you every time you buy something, at least once that you need to acknowledge, and in several other places. I do not believe a case could be made that it is fallacious. That would be fraud, which is a criminal offense in the USA, even when it is done by a corporation. CIG's ownership and management team would be held personally liable, and since they are based in the USA, this would result in some serious prison time if it could be proven.

My advice on how to interpret this: Whether or not you invest more than just a basic pledge in this game is completely up to you IMO. If you can afford it, and you want to see this type of game, then by all means feel free to support the effort. If not, nobody but yourself is twisting your arm. People tend to get caught up in it, to be sure, but CIG has been pretty clear that there is no reason for anyone to pledge more than the basic package, other than giving them additional funding to use for building the game.

 

[Blind Owl]

Your points are all valid, and I think a huge numbe of backers (here at TEST anyways) are in the same mind-set: we are not buying ships, we are backing the development of this game. That is why I personally have no issue throwing a few dollars every month towards CIG: because I believe in this game and I WANT this game.

Basically, anyone who thinks that they are "buying ships" needs to give their head a shake. We are supporting CIG in the development of this game. If the game fails, then we loose our pledge money. It is NOT an investment. There is no promise of return. You get a ship as a reward for backing. That is all.

You are correct in your thinking good sir, with the exception of this:

* They calls them ships sales but it s falacious ! it s a raising funds opération.

They do not call them ship sales. It has, and always will be, crowd funding for the development of the game.

 

[Firen]

In the first case, someone who gave CIG $500 for a ship, and can't play it when someone with a base package plays 12 hours a day shouldn't happen, because everyone has to have a base package. So what about the case when someone has upgraded their only ship to a $500 ship, and it is not available to play: CIG has been using loaner ships to fill that gap. It's a pretty good model, because often it results in having two ships. This means there is no reason for the person not to be able to play.

Now imagine you only have a game package and nothing else and you CCU it to a polaris. Now when the game goes live for real, will you be able to actualy fly in your polaris or will the maintenance/crew/fuel/rearm cost ground you? and you struggle to get enough monay to realy start the game.
And then let say 2 month later when you finaly can buy a small ship that make you play you see "playerunknow number00254" buy himself a polaris and fly with it to his heart content.
I m pretty sure some players will forget that they didnt bough the right to fly that ship but just helped the development and will make a drama about it.

Now i perfectly understand that some peoples have enough monay to spare on those little pleasures as buying great ships to collect them. I will never be jalous about them just because if i had enough monay i would do the same. And if they can manage to buy those ships they will surely have enough income at the start the game without concern.

 

[Jolly_Green_Giant]

Ultimately I tell people to just buy a starter package but still playfully encourage spending as much money as possible :P . If you have to question spending more, then don't. It should be disposable income that you do not hesitate to spend. We have no idea when the game will release or if it will even be the game each individual hopes it will be. It's all a mental fantasy at this point. I'm not trying to sound negative, just real. People will get in game and acquire your thousand dollar fleet in what you may think is an absurdly short amount of time. This is the internet so of course it will happen. It's a great game and it asks you to pledge at your own risk. It does present something that caters to the impulsive so that's why I say, be careful. Your points are pretty spot on so you have a good idea what you're getting into, doesn't sound like you missed much. I hope this helps.

 

[Munken]

Hey I'll add my comments to these questions just because you ask so nicely :smile:

* You only do pledge, you dont buy anything.

Not really a question but you are correct.

* You pay VAT because CIG is a commercial business and they have taxe because they promise you a final product for your donation aka the game (and nothing else).

CIG is a company under RSI, RSI is located in UK and have to follow the EU VAT laws the important thing to say is that they dont promise a product.

* There is no garanty to receive the game. Chris roberts could just announce one day " thanks guys for your support but we couldnt make it." even worse they could give us some half finished product and just say that this is the most they could do.

Their TOS says that you can get a refund. But its worded in a way, where they could say you got what you payed for in the alpha and then you would not allowed a refund. That would cause a lot of people to sue them. Hard to say who would win that. But you can read their TOS here: LINK

* Ships will be aviable into the game and some with probably little effort.

Some with little effort like the starter ships others with more effort like the Javelin. Its a balancing question. that will be more defined later in the development. Personally i would like for ships like the Idris to take 1 person 12 months or 12 people 1 month to acquire.

* They calls them ships sales but it s falacious ! it s a raising funds opération. Maybe CIG should rename it accordingly? As i see it, they creat various pledge and associate a spécifique goodies with them. Like when you make a donnation for 100$ to a charity and they give you a little keychain as a thanks (you actualy dont buy the keychain)

they are very clear on checkout that its a pledge not a purchase and provide a description to what they think the difference is. you can also read that in their TOS. They do it because they make more money this way same reason why they don't downplay the false hype on LTI because people is willing to give them a lot of money for the idea of what the community has hyped it to be.

* There is alot of drama about LTI, but based on the fact that you can only use one ship at a time, and the fact that insurance wont be that bad to begin with. well what is the drama about again?

I have LTI ships not because of the value that it provides. I, and many others, get it because it makes the ships unique. In the finished game i won't just have an Aurora i will have an Aurora LTI which "crosses fingers" wont be obtainable in the finished game. This is what makes early backers angry because they thought they could wave their fancy ships around the verse to show that they where early backers that made the game happen but now everyone has it and now that has been taken away form them.

* Backers seems to believe that the only way to get ships is via ship sales............... WTF that came from? As soon as the planet Arccorp become aviable we are supposed to be able to buy ships in game (still in alpha though).

I don't see this at all happening. People buy ships because they are excited and hype each other up to the point of buying things they don't need. Just like some people buy expensive clothes to show off to their friends. Is it to compensate for something? who knows but its very human.

* Imagine the drama when players who gave CIG 500$ for a ship and finaly cant play it before a player who didnt pledge anything past the base game package but plays 12 hours a day?

I doubt this will be the case for reasons explained above. The Discussion will be that some in the community would say its to easy while others would say it's to hard. Its a balancing act that they will have to go through. Personal opinion again is that i would much rather have a super grindy game where pooling money together is a necessity for larger ships. that would drive people to multi-crew instead of everyone owning all the ships and thinking "I don't want my ship to be unused in my hangar so ill hire a bunch of NPC's. Better to be a crew of something then to be a captain of nothing.

So i ask you my comrades did i misunderstood something ?

eh you are alright but mostly its CIG's fault they hype things because marketing and they allow the community to hype false value because more marketing.

 

[Vavrik]

Now imagine you only have a game package and nothing else and you CCU it to a polaris. Now when the game goes live for real, will you be able to actualy fly in your polaris or will the maintenance/crew/fuel/rearm cost ground you? and you struggle to get enough monay to realy start the game.
And then let say 2 month later when you finaly can buy a small ship that make you play you see "playerunknow number00254" buy himself a polaris and fly with it to his heart content.
I m pretty sure some players will forget that they didnt bough the right to fly that ship but just helped the development and will make a drama about it.

Now i perfectly understand that some peoples have enough monay to spare on those little pleasures as buying great ships to collect them. I will never be jalous about them just because if i had enough monay i would do the same. And if they can manage to buy those ships they will surely have enough income at the start the game without concern.

I am not sure I understand the objection. This is common sense to me. If you bought a multi-crew ship that you cannot fly because you cannot afford maintenance/crew/fuel/operational costs, how is that CIG's issue? I mean if you don't have enough friends to crew a ship you bought, you might have thought about that before you bought the ship. Just sayin. And if another player is able to enjoy a multi-player ship, and you own the same ship (in your hanger) then you too can fly and enjoy that ship if you want.

The rest of this is about the return, what CIG is giving for your pledge. It's not simply an empty promise.

If you bought an Aurora package, then CCU it to the polaris, you still have the CCU as long as you didn't use the upgrade. It is an asset in your account until you apply it to an Aurora. If you never use the upgrade, even if you then upgrade the aurora to an Idris thereby making the Polaris upgrade useless, you still own the upgrade. Get an Aurora and use the upgrade.

If you bought the Aurora, and applied the upgrade to Polaris, then you own a Polaris, but since it's not in game you get a loaner or two in it's place. When the polaris comes available you have the polaris in your inventory. That's how it works for me.

Am I missing something here?

Something about gaming you will always find is people who want to throw temper tantrums, and cause drama. That is a fact of life in the gaming industry, and even in almost any software. It's best to ignore it. People who tend to react like that can be VERY vocal and stir all kinds of stink. But my experience is, they are by far, a very small minority of the population. My advice is to ignore them, don't worry about or focus on the drama.

 

[Radegast74]

Like everyone has said before me, I don't think you have missed anything. You have just figured out that CIG has an incredible marketing team, and we are all hyped to throw them more money than we ever thought we would.

I justify my large $$$$ purchases by telling myself, "If I didn't fund this game, and others didn't fund it, then we would never get anything new & incredible. Just the same old EA-type of recycled crap...same game, just another year on."

One thing I think is an advantage to early backers (early pre-beta): the ships available now are cheaper, both in terms of dollar cost (or, euro cost for you) and in terms of time. Once the game starts, I believe (based on CR's past statements) ships are going to increase in cost. Larger ships are going to be a big-time grind. This is because CR sees the game as a space-life simulator. In real life, we can quickly work to buy a basic car, and with some effort we can buy a luxury car. But look how much a fighter jet costs, look at how much a bomber costs, and look at how much a frigate or destroyer costs...those are going to be to tough to get.

 

[Vavrik]

I totally agree @Radegast74 . I'm just not sure what @Firen is really objecting to.

 

[Shadow Reaper]

Now imagine you only have a game package and nothing else and you CCU it to a polaris. Now when the game goes live for real, will you be able to actualy fly in your polaris or will the maintenance/crew/fuel/rearm cost ground you?

The Polaris does have a bit of cargo space--about twice that of a Connie; so you could try hauling freight with it. It should have decent sensors, though less than the Carrack, so you could explore with it. Also there are supposed to be missions written in the Sons Of Orion storyline that enable you to make good cash killing Vanduul, and that boat is built for killing. It has good hatches so you can tail gate at ball games with it. It has a pool table, so if you can run the table at straight pool, go for it. Is a perfect gambler's den.

Thing is though, we don't know about things like fuel costs and equipment upkeep yet. Until we do, why not just purchase ships you can fly today? The Polaris won't be flyable for quite some time yet. Each day has enough troubles of its own and you will always be able to upgrade to a Polaris. The real question is can you afford all the ballistic weapon replacements each time it goes boom. . .you can't insure those, and I bet it will come with lasers.

 

[Bambooza]

I mean if you don't have enough friends to crew a ship you bought, you might have thought about that before you bought the ship. Just sayin.

Another good reason to join Test. Always friends to join up and crew ships on their way to a fiery demise. Of course if your plan is to not crash in spectacular fashion then perhaps you might have joined the wrong group of friends.

 

[Firen]

I am not sure I understand the objection. This is common sense to me. If you bought a multi-crew ship that you cannot fly because you cannot afford maintenance/crew/fuel/operational costs, how is that CIG's issue? I mean if you don't have enough friends to crew a ship you bought, you might have thought about that before you bought the ship. Just sayin. And if another player is able to enjoy a multi-player ship, and you own the same ship (in your hanger) then you too can fly and enjoy that ship if you want.

The rest of this is about the return, what CIG is giving for your pledge. It's not simply an empty promise.

If you bought an Aurora package, then CCU it to the polaris, you still have the CCU as long as you didn't use the upgrade. It is an asset in your account until you apply it to an Aurora. If you never use the upgrade, even if you then upgrade the aurora to an Idris thereby making the Polaris upgrade useless, you still own the upgrade. Get an Aurora and use the upgrade.

If you bought the Aurora, and applied the upgrade to Polaris, then you own a Polaris, but since it's not in game you get a loaner or two in it's place. When the polaris comes available you have the polaris in your inventory. That's how it works for me.

Am I missing something here?

Something about gaming you will always find is people who want to throw temper tantrums, and cause drama. That is a fact of life in the gaming industry, and even in almost any software. It's best to ignore it. People who tend to react like that can be VERY vocal and stir all kinds of stink. But my experience is, they are by far, a very small minority of the population. My advice is to ignore them, don't worry about or focus on the drama.

Oh, sorry i wasnt objecting your reply.
I take every reply as they are and add thème to my réflexion. I know i could be wrong so every participation are to be readed.
I Just readed your comment and i though About This case that is All.

 

[Vavrik]

Oh, sorry i wasnt objecting your reply.
I take every reply as they are and add thème to my réflexion. I know i could be wrong so every participation are to be readed.
I Just readed your comment and i though About This case that is All.

Ok good stuff, I wasnt sure. :slight_smile: Those ARE good questions to ask though, and I think more people should do a little introspection about why they're spending money on ships now, considering there will be a (grindy) game mechanic to do the same thing. If it's just "Oh yeah, that is a cool concept, dream dream dream" then that might be a bad thing that you're buying ships. Same people probably eat the icing on a cake first, or ... buy things at a department store because they're on sale, not because they want or need them.
Reminds me of this, though not quite... Woman goes into a store, buys shoes for 50% off because she wants them, goes home says, "I saved money". Man goes into a store, buys a hammer for 200% of it's value because damnit he really needs a hammer and it's the last one.

 

[NaffNaffBobFace]

[EDIT - I should have read the whole thread before responding it's an awesome set of replies and have said what I say below but hey-ho enjoy the following:slight_smile:]

I tryed to voice my opinions on spectrum but i got bashed continuously.

Yeah Spectrum is like that. You are better off here :slight_smile:

I recently had a veeeeery long discussion with a pair of tophatted gentlemen on Spectrum who were intent on saying they "owned" ships and they were "pre-purchasing digital assets", not funding game development. I eventually had to go find ALL the Terms Of Service CIG has ever made (Kindly linked from their current Terms Of Service) to make my point that they funded ongoing game development and their pledge was to pay for ongoing development and the creation and delivery of their "Pledge Item" not their "Purchase" by quoting the following from the TOS:

"Your Pledge Funds are a deposit to be used for the development and production cost of the Game, including the Pledge Items"

I was then told by one of the gents that TOS were not a contract as he hadn't signed anything and no one ever reads them anyway. I pointed to another part of the TOS which reads:

"BY EXPRESSLY CONFIRMING YOUR ACCEPTANCE VIA CHECKING THE PROVIDED BOX OR PRESSING THE “ACCEPT BUTTON”, OR OTHERWISE BY USING THE WEBSITE WWW.ROBERTSSPACEINDUSTRIES.COM AND RELATED WEBPAGES (THE “WEBSITE”) OR ANY OF THE RSI SERVICES (AS DEFINED BELOW). YOU AGREE THAT THESE TOS ARE ENFORCEABLE LIKE ANY WRITTEN CONTRACT SIGNED BY YOU."

The fact he had ticked the accept box when pledging and was still using Spectrum to talk to me meant yes, he had essentially signed a contract and was every time he logged in.

He kept arguing though. Spectrum is like that.

I think a lot of people would be a lot less salty if they actually read the TOS and took the time to understand what they have agreed to and what their money is making - because they ALL ticked that box when they signed up and they have no excuse. To be fair, I hadn't read the TOS before that conversation either, I'm just lucky what I presumed to be the case was the case.

As far as I can see your observations are valid - just a comment from me on the below:

* They calls them ships sales but it s falacious ! it s a raising funds opération. Maybe CIG should rename it accordingly? As i see it, they creat various pledge and associate a spécifique goodies with them. Like when you make a donnation for 100$ to a charity and they give you a little keychain as a thanks (you actualy dont buy the keychain)

The section of the site where you buy the ships from is called the "Pledge Store" which I hope would be pretty clear combined with the TOS. :slight_smile:

There is a lot of gray area over crowd funding pledges and many countries didn't make a solid decision on what they are classed as in regard to Sales Taxes until 2015, years after SC kickstarted in 2012. Although most countries accept crowd funders offer "Rewards" rather than purchases, some class them as a "Pre-purchase" so they can claim sales tax on them and others, legitimately, say that the funds raised are "Income" which they can then tax... somehow.

I personally think the game packages are pre-purchases which can be taxed as you will get a product at the end (the copy of the game/games), but the ship pledges are not as they won't be selling the ships in the game after Beta so they are purely rewards: how can you pre-purchase something that is never going to go on sale?

But thats just me. I think too much and know too little. :slight_smile:

 

[Bambooza]

Damn @NaffNaffBobFace hold my beer... Then again you are right, and even if there was a way to force people to read the TOS as well as clearly state what the pledge store is they will still argue due to their own beliefs altering their perception of reality.

 

[Vavrik]

Well then. I think we could say TEST members have expressed a relatively healthy outlook on the issue here at least. It's kind of sad that others don't get it, and get all bent out of shape - but it is what it is. But... you don't want @NaffNaffBobFace to hold your beer for long @Bambooza. He is a member of Test Squadron and ... well seriously I wouldn't trust many of us to just HOLD my beer without at least sipping it. Hell, I'd take a drink if you handed it to me. Holding beer is thirsty work.

 

[Bambooza]

Just so long as the beer is not wasted. For a wasted beer is truly a sin.

 

[Vavrik]

Just so long as the beer is not wasted. For a wasted beer is truly a sin.

And THAT is Gospel !!!