New missiles
- Thread starter Blind Owl
- Start date
So I just watched all three of those videos and here's what I took from it. The "beam" maneuver he is talking about holds no grounds in this game yet as I don't believe mechanics for cross sections have been implemented yet. I'm sure they assign each craft a hull value for its cross section and that determines missile lock on time and that's it. Ultimately he is defeating these missiles by outmaneuvering them as it seems the game mechanics favor a 6 o clock launch. As far as EM missiles go CIG has said they will be introducing decoy missiles / deployables into the game later on down the line and this would make perfect sense as thwarting an EM missile (imaginary mechanics) with flare just doesn't make sense. I'd like to see some concrete evidence on how missile mechanics work in 2.6 and find out for certain as I suspect that they arent fully developed. I'll include some links below that will give you a better insight to how actual electronic warfare works, how to properly evade missiles, and the necessity of decoys in an EM lock environment.
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/electronic-countermeasure-ecm/
https://www.quora.com/What-maneuver-can-a-pilot-take-when-going-head-to-head-with-an-enemy-aircraft-when-they-realise-a-radar-guided-BVR-air-to-air-missile-has-been-launched-at-them
http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Evading-Missiles.html
And if you want to do some research on how to escape IR missiles, a cool technique is making use of Thermal crossover. Basically the temperature of your craft is the same as the background IR of the environment and the IR guided missile cannot track you, this usually happens at either dawn or dusk. A nifty maneuver is also placing your craft between the missile and its direct line of sight to the sun, as obviously the missile will essentially be blinded.
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Thermal_crossover_(military)
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/electronic-countermeasure-ecm/
https://www.quora.com/What-maneuver-can-a-pilot-take-when-going-head-to-head-with-an-enemy-aircraft-when-they-realise-a-radar-guided-BVR-air-to-air-missile-has-been-launched-at-them
http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Evading-Missiles.html
And if you want to do some research on how to escape IR missiles, a cool technique is making use of Thermal crossover. Basically the temperature of your craft is the same as the background IR of the environment and the IR guided missile cannot track you, this usually happens at either dawn or dusk. A nifty maneuver is also placing your craft between the missile and its direct line of sight to the sun, as obviously the missile will essentially be blinded.
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Thermal_crossover_(military)
Wow I really unenglished my english in that last post. I've been up for quite a bit as I'm sick, so I apologize :P
Wow, that is a massive overload of information :cold_sweat:
Luckily the missiles in SC will have a much simpler engine to control their behaviour thus evasion will be your main weapon of defence.
Ha, sorry. It's my job and I just like the theory and operation of electronic countermeasures. It should be pretty simple in game though once the mechanics are hashed out.
IR missiles: You can already see your ships IR rating on most HUDs, so the higher it is, the more likely an IR missile will be able to lock and track you. Pop off a few flares, the IR missile sees those burning brighter than your ship and goes after it, simple and done.
CS missiles: A little bit more complicated but basically if you have a big ship, you're an easy target. The larger the surface area, the more of that signal is going to bounce off your ship and back to the missile to guide it to you. How do you defend against this? Chaff. Launch some chaff, the radar ping from the missile or the hostile ship guiding the missile (however the mechanics work, outcome is still the same) hits the chaff instead of your ship and guides the missile into the chaff plume giving you enough time to maneuver out.
EM missiles: since these don't exist in real life but I can take an educated guess on what they are supposed to do, we will assume the missile has the ability to detect your ships magnetic signature. Chaff or flare won't defeat this based on how these missiles work. What will work however would be a decoy that gives off a stronger EM signature than your ship. So it will be like a flare, but instead of giving off a bright IR signature, it will give off a bright EM signature.
So I've had my play around, in order to reduce the variables I used a Vanguard warden with 424 racks for a total of 4 size 3 missiles. I played 9 rounds of pirate swarm with each of the 3 missile types and charted hit/miss/kill ratios as well as approximate lock time and range. I didn't fire upon enemies before or during the missile fire animation, so all results are missiles only.
Nova Pyrotecnica Viper 3:
Hits: 14
Kills: 2 (note kills are also hits and included are above, 1x M50, 1 x Sabre)
Miss: 3
Total shots: 17
Lock type: IR (thermal)
Lock time: ~3-4 seconds
Lock range: Highly variable based on the ship and their current heat output, Auroras needed to be within 250m to get a lock, while Cutlasses and Sabres could be locked at 2km plus!
Strike Missile
Opinion:
The cheapest of the size 3s and it shows, missed the most out of all the missiles (probably due to being a strike missile), killed the least and, depending on the target, needs you to be right up in peoples faces to get a lock. It has the shortest lock time, but given how you use it feels longer than the others as it will break more often. It seemed to do better against bigger ships. That being said I got the best action shot, and it does look cool with it's blue shell. Probably the most fitting to people who will be up in the enemies face dogfighting, will probably try it on my gladius.
Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3
Hits:14
Kills: 4 (1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1 (hit a rock on the direct route to the target, barely worth counting as a miss)
Total shots: 15
Lock type: EM (detects target ships power)
Lock time: ~5-6 seconds
Lock range: Very consistent, this missile seemed to always be able to get a lock at 6.8K or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
At over 3 times the price of the Nova Pyrotecnica option, you really do get what you pay for here, The Thunderbolt will rip it's way through light fighters which makes it a great option for slower ships, it has a slow lock time so you wont be able to get many locks up close, but at 6.8km range you can easily get a lock in before you get close to engagement range. The thunderbolt feels like the sniper/boom and zoom option and I love it on my Vanguard
Firestorm Kinetics Arrester 3
Hits: 13
Kills: 6 ( 2 Auroras, 1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1
Total shots: 14
Lock type: CS (locks onto the ship's cross section, i.e. should be good against bigger ships)
Lock time: ~6 seconds
Lock range: A little less consistent than the thunderbolt, but could still lock many ships at 6.8k, smaller ships like the m50 needed you to be at 2.5k or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
CS missiles should struggle to hit small ships, but all I saw was that it needed to be closer to get the lock, however with it's massive lock time trying to get the lock on a good m50 pilot at under 2km would be a struggle. Once you do though wave that ship goodbye. The Arrester didn't seem to hurt the larger ships as much though, cutlasses needed 2 missiles fired at them to get the to be heavily damaged, while for the Thunderbolt 1 was usually enough to send them spinning. However the numbers don't lie and the Arrester has the best kill ratio of all the missiles.
Conclusion:
I'm going to be using the Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3 on my Vanguard in the future, the consistent long range is great for when you need to zoom out and let your shields recharge and I think it compliments the Vanguard's role perfectly, A rec costs don't really matter the higher price of entry isn't an issue yet and I think it's worth splashing out. Its worth noting that all size 3 missiles pack a punch, anyone in a ship smaller than a cutlass is sent into an uncontrollable spin after meeting any of these 3 fellows, giving you vital time to shoot them down while they are regaining control. The added lethality against smaller ships makes the switch from size 2 to 3 well worth it.
Nova Pyrotecnica Viper 3:
Hits: 14
Kills: 2 (note kills are also hits and included are above, 1x M50, 1 x Sabre)
Miss: 3
Total shots: 17
Lock type: IR (thermal)
Lock time: ~3-4 seconds
Lock range: Highly variable based on the ship and their current heat output, Auroras needed to be within 250m to get a lock, while Cutlasses and Sabres could be locked at 2km plus!
Strike Missile
Opinion:
The cheapest of the size 3s and it shows, missed the most out of all the missiles (probably due to being a strike missile), killed the least and, depending on the target, needs you to be right up in peoples faces to get a lock. It has the shortest lock time, but given how you use it feels longer than the others as it will break more often. It seemed to do better against bigger ships. That being said I got the best action shot, and it does look cool with it's blue shell. Probably the most fitting to people who will be up in the enemies face dogfighting, will probably try it on my gladius.
Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3
Hits:14
Kills: 4 (1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1 (hit a rock on the direct route to the target, barely worth counting as a miss)
Total shots: 15
Lock type: EM (detects target ships power)
Lock time: ~5-6 seconds
Lock range: Very consistent, this missile seemed to always be able to get a lock at 6.8K or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
At over 3 times the price of the Nova Pyrotecnica option, you really do get what you pay for here, The Thunderbolt will rip it's way through light fighters which makes it a great option for slower ships, it has a slow lock time so you wont be able to get many locks up close, but at 6.8km range you can easily get a lock in before you get close to engagement range. The thunderbolt feels like the sniper/boom and zoom option and I love it on my Vanguard
Firestorm Kinetics Arrester 3
Hits: 13
Kills: 6 ( 2 Auroras, 1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1
Total shots: 14
Lock type: CS (locks onto the ship's cross section, i.e. should be good against bigger ships)
Lock time: ~6 seconds
Lock range: A little less consistent than the thunderbolt, but could still lock many ships at 6.8k, smaller ships like the m50 needed you to be at 2.5k or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
CS missiles should struggle to hit small ships, but all I saw was that it needed to be closer to get the lock, however with it's massive lock time trying to get the lock on a good m50 pilot at under 2km would be a struggle. Once you do though wave that ship goodbye. The Arrester didn't seem to hurt the larger ships as much though, cutlasses needed 2 missiles fired at them to get the to be heavily damaged, while for the Thunderbolt 1 was usually enough to send them spinning. However the numbers don't lie and the Arrester has the best kill ratio of all the missiles.
Conclusion:
I'm going to be using the Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3 on my Vanguard in the future, the consistent long range is great for when you need to zoom out and let your shields recharge and I think it compliments the Vanguard's role perfectly, A rec costs don't really matter the higher price of entry isn't an issue yet and I think it's worth splashing out. Its worth noting that all size 3 missiles pack a punch, anyone in a ship smaller than a cutlass is sent into an uncontrollable spin after meeting any of these 3 fellows, giving you vital time to shoot them down while they are regaining control. The added lethality against smaller ships makes the switch from size 2 to 3 well worth it.
Awesome information, thank you for sharing. Stuff like this is what I'm looking for :)
If found this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ImhdZcw-8Nn18d5pTd2nBkHtHUcq27aTlJK95WrLiec/edit#gid=998208401 where I also found the links to the vids: View: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3p76rh/what_is_the_proper_way_to_dodge_a_missile/
If you select the countermeasures tab, then you notice that flares have a IR and EM value while the chaff has a CS value.
Flares is good against IR and EM missiles
Chaff is good against CS missiles
I am wondering if EM missiles are more like an ARM/HARM (Anti-Radiation Missile/High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile) that we use today. Something that tracks your ship by the electronic emissions it is sending out. I know that the ships sensors will be emitting radiation, I would assume the shields would be a massive source of EM as basically it is a big bubble of electro-magnetic radiation. As for the engine, it probably sends out EM also. A lot to track there and yeah, flares ain't gonna cover it. A decoy would be about the only thing that would work.
Guys are you aware you can actually shoot missiles out of the sky? I really want to try this with my sabre with 4 pyrobusts as they're like flak cannons.
This is definitely the most feasible mechanic for EM missiles. I know I kept saying the mechanic is imaginary but I didn't even take this into account because it's not something aircraft have to worry about. Ground based radars give off a very powerful and distinct electronic signature which allows for something like a HARM missile to exist in the first place. If you could make an ultra sensitive HARM missile I suppose we would have our Star Citizen EM mechanics. Nice catch :)
Well everything we are talking about here is on the EM spectrum. So after looking at that spreadsheet you posted we could just assume space flares don't work like todays conventional flares and call it a day :P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
Take a look to the right of that wiki page. IR is close to the visible light spectrum, thats why we can see flares burning bright. However we do have covert flares that you can't see that don't give off any visible light so I guess we can just assume they took this technology to a whole new level. IDK, it hurts my head.
Lol, I don't have to work with that knowledge IRL, only the game technical knowledge is relevant for me, so if CIG implemented EM in flares and flares can counter IR and EM missiles, perfect. Although I like to have an alternative,
MikeNificent
Space Marshal
Decided to try out the FSKI Thunderbolts on my SH in solo vanduul swarm, since the Sabre Comet is free to fly this month for subs and they were free :slight_smile:So I've had my play around, in order to reduce the variables I used a Vanguard warden with 424 racks for a total of 4 size 3 missiles. I played 9 rounds of pirate swarm with each of the 3 missile types and charted hit/miss/kill ratios as well as approximate lock time and range. I didn't fire upon enemies before or during the missile fire animation, so all results are missiles only.
Nova Pyrotecnica Viper 3:
Hits: 14
Kills: 2 (note kills are also hits and included are above, 1x M50, 1 x Sabre)
Miss: 3
Total shots: 17
Lock type: IR (thermal)
Lock time: ~3-4 seconds
Lock range: Highly variable based on the ship and their current heat output, Auroras needed to be within 250m to get a lock, while Cutlasses and Sabres could be locked at 2km plus!
Strike Missile
Opinion:
The cheapest of the size 3s and it shows, missed the most out of all the missiles (probably due to being a strike missile), killed the least and, depending on the target, needs you to be right up in peoples faces to get a lock. It has the shortest lock time, but given how you use it feels longer than the others as it will break more often. It seemed to do better against bigger ships. That being said I got the best action shot, and it does look cool with it's blue shell. Probably the most fitting to people who will be up in the enemies face dogfighting, will probably try it on my gladius.
Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3
Hits:14
Kills: 4 (1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1 (hit a rock on the direct route to the target, barely worth counting as a miss)
Total shots: 15
Lock type: EM (detects target ships power)
Lock time: ~5-6 seconds
Lock range: Very consistent, this missile seemed to always be able to get a lock at 6.8K or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
At over 3 times the price of the Nova Pyrotecnica option, you really do get what you pay for here, The Thunderbolt will rip it's way through light fighters which makes it a great option for slower ships, it has a slow lock time so you wont be able to get many locks up close, but at 6.8km range you can easily get a lock in before you get close to engagement range. The thunderbolt feels like the sniper/boom and zoom option and I love it on my Vanguard
Firestorm Kinetics Arrester 3
Hits: 13
Kills: 6 ( 2 Auroras, 1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1
Total shots: 14
Lock type: CS (locks onto the ship's cross section, i.e. should be good against bigger ships)
Lock time: ~6 seconds
Lock range: A little less consistent than the thunderbolt, but could still lock many ships at 6.8k, smaller ships like the m50 needed you to be at 2.5k or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
CS missiles should struggle to hit small ships, but all I saw was that it needed to be closer to get the lock, however with it's massive lock time trying to get the lock on a good m50 pilot at under 2km would be a struggle. Once you do though wave that ship goodbye. The Arrester didn't seem to hurt the larger ships as much though, cutlasses needed 2 missiles fired at them to get the to be heavily damaged, while for the Thunderbolt 1 was usually enough to send them spinning. However the numbers don't lie and the Arrester has the best kill ratio of all the missiles.
Conclusion:
I'm going to be using the Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3 on my Vanguard in the future, the consistent long range is great for when you need to zoom out and let your shields recharge and I think it compliments the Vanguard's role perfectly, A rec costs don't really matter the higher price of entry isn't an issue yet and I think it's worth splashing out. Its worth noting that all size 3 missiles pack a punch, anyone in a ship smaller than a cutlass is sent into an uncontrollable spin after meeting any of these 3 fellows, giving you vital time to shoot them down while they are regaining control. The added lethality against smaller ships makes the switch from size 2 to 3 well worth it.
0 misses. 100% one shot kills (2 of the ships that I accidentally shot with 2 missiles died instantly also, but they weren't technically 'one' shot kills, so I felt it necessary to mention).
The rest of my loadout is as follows:
Wings: Panther CF227
Nose: Pyroburst Scattergun
Turret: Flashfire w/ C788 Ballistic Cannon
General Strategy: Missiles for elites / evening odds as needed when faced w/ 3 on 1. 227 at range while closing w/ AB. Pyroburst + Cannon for close range finisher. Lots of strafing.
Results: 0 deaths. VS Complete (for the first time apparently).
I have previously gotten to round 15 or 16 with no deaths, but then was quickly overwhelmed several times in a row. I'm thinking that those missiles made a huge difference in evening the odds and preventing me from getting overwhelmed quite as easily. I'm sure I'm probably a little better pilot now than in previous attempts (which were quite some time ago), but those missiles rock. Thanks to @Lienna for doing the research I used to make the decision, @Blind Owl for asking this thread, and everyone else who contributed to it.
Attachments
Shadow Reaper
Space Marshal
You need to understand how each missile works to thwart it, and to know which missile to use in each situation. There are no shortcuts.The skill set for using missiles well is the same as doing scan and EM warfare. If you excel at this, you might consider the REO or Rear Equipment Officer seat on a Sentinel.
Unless you know exactly what your target will be, you want a selection of different missiles. Remember that you can only get limited information from others here posting about their experiences, because missile performance is partly a function of the target involved, and partly a function of the avionics of the bird launching them. Vanguards are supposed to be amongst the best missile platforms available, and get faster locks than almost any other ship. Presumably, the Polaris will lock its S3 missiles very quickly as well.
I have not seen anyone using missiles at great range yet, but part of the calculus involved in missile selection regards missile range and missile lock range. Bigger missiles do more damage, have longer ranges and are harder to spoof with counter-measures. They were designed to be launched from well outside most fighter's scan range if you are in a stealthy ship. I think one of the most dread things players will need to learn to cope with are groups of Arrester III missiles seemingly appearing from nowhere, locked on one's ship, and seconds from impact. That would be the calling card of pirates and privateers.
Hey, these are good vids. The first is a bit long, but.... Thanks good find
Yes theyre brilliant missiles, I use them on swarm only for tough ships with a longer time to kill with guns- i.e vanguards.
That is why the TLDR, and you know what? I sounds completely legit, but until now I never tried it in practice :blush:. I use my missiles to keep my targets busy, if they hit, fine, if they don't, also fine, they had a secondary mission.
Soooo.... when I get a missile on my tail then I take care that my "followers" don't accomplish their secondary mission :wink:. Since I prefer light fighters, I must avoid incoming fire with strafe and boost while keeping my guns on target. I always hope that this whirlwind tactic also is sufficient enough to evade incoming missiles.
Incoming missiles from the front give me an opportunity to alter my course, all other incoming go on blind faith :grin:
Hahaha, oh my god. This is the kind of math I love to do while drinking!
You're very welcome.
Do we have the ability to select different missiles on the HUD yet?
I can't wait for these mechanics to be implemented. I have a feeling that the sentinel will be a hello of a lot of fun.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you. This is precisely what I was looking for! I can't wait to try this out now.So I've had my play around, in order to reduce the variables I used a Vanguard warden with 424 racks for a total of 4 size 3 missiles. I played 9 rounds of pirate swarm with each of the 3 missile types and charted hit/miss/kill ratios as well as approximate lock time and range. I didn't fire upon enemies before or during the missile fire animation, so all results are missiles only.
Nova Pyrotecnica Viper 3:
Hits: 14
Kills: 2 (note kills are also hits and included are above, 1x M50, 1 x Sabre)
Miss: 3
Total shots: 17
Lock type: IR (thermal)
Lock time: ~3-4 seconds
Lock range: Highly variable based on the ship and their current heat output, Auroras needed to be within 250m to get a lock, while Cutlasses and Sabres could be locked at 2km plus!
Strike Missile
Opinion:
The cheapest of the size 3s and it shows, missed the most out of all the missiles (probably due to being a strike missile), killed the least and, depending on the target, needs you to be right up in peoples faces to get a lock. It has the shortest lock time, but given how you use it feels longer than the others as it will break more often. It seemed to do better against bigger ships. That being said I got the best action shot, and it does look cool with it's blue shell. Probably the most fitting to people who will be up in the enemies face dogfighting, will probably try it on my gladius.
Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3
Hits:14
Kills: 4 (1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1 (hit a rock on the direct route to the target, barely worth counting as a miss)
Total shots: 15
Lock type: EM (detects target ships power)
Lock time: ~5-6 seconds
Lock range: Very consistent, this missile seemed to always be able to get a lock at 6.8K or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
At over 3 times the price of the Nova Pyrotecnica option, you really do get what you pay for here, The Thunderbolt will rip it's way through light fighters which makes it a great option for slower ships, it has a slow lock time so you wont be able to get many locks up close, but at 6.8km range you can easily get a lock in before you get close to engagement range. The thunderbolt feels like the sniper/boom and zoom option and I love it on my Vanguard
Firestorm Kinetics Arrester 3
Hits: 13
Kills: 6 ( 2 Auroras, 1 gladius, 3 M50s)
Miss: 1
Total shots: 14
Lock type: CS (locks onto the ship's cross section, i.e. should be good against bigger ships)
Lock time: ~6 seconds
Lock range: A little less consistent than the thunderbolt, but could still lock many ships at 6.8k, smaller ships like the m50 needed you to be at 2.5k or less
Proximity Missile
Opinion:
CS missiles should struggle to hit small ships, but all I saw was that it needed to be closer to get the lock, however with it's massive lock time trying to get the lock on a good m50 pilot at under 2km would be a struggle. Once you do though wave that ship goodbye. The Arrester didn't seem to hurt the larger ships as much though, cutlasses needed 2 missiles fired at them to get the to be heavily damaged, while for the Thunderbolt 1 was usually enough to send them spinning. However the numbers don't lie and the Arrester has the best kill ratio of all the missiles.
Conclusion:
I'm going to be using the Firestorm Kinetics Thunderbolt 3 on my Vanguard in the future, the consistent long range is great for when you need to zoom out and let your shields recharge and I think it compliments the Vanguard's role perfectly, A rec costs don't really matter the higher price of entry isn't an issue yet and I think it's worth splashing out. Its worth noting that all size 3 missiles pack a punch, anyone in a ship smaller than a cutlass is sent into an uncontrollable spin after meeting any of these 3 fellows, giving you vital time to shoot them down while they are regaining control. The added lethality against smaller ships makes the switch from size 2 to 3 well worth it.