I can't help but feel like this is the same thing as going to a restaurant. Eating the whole meal. Then saying you don't want to pay for it after the fact when you totally could have either ordered something else or said from the beginning it wasn't what you expect it. I don't understand the entitlement of because i'm not happy i should get my way no matter what. Im saying this as a waiter that has to deal with this every now and then
Well since i dont think you understand that my point is that The Limit on hours played should be extended to 5 hours to decide if you like the game or want to return it. In some causes lowered if the game is only a few hours long but usually price coincides with that anyway.
So i dont see how your question is relative to my point?
To also point out technically the game can last years at its current state. If you can stomach endless grinding and only have an interest in the possible likelihood of some super unique species ETC...
Nor am i defending Hello Games or Sean Murray I think they owe more on the game, but i also except the fact that since i played the game for so long im not owed any refund. Plus, i don't have any buyers remorse. I still enjoy the game for what it is. I find it relaxing like minecraft is. Could it have been better sold, Yes. Could the price point be lower in the state its in now, Totally. The point still stands that you don't buy a book read the whole thing then say it wasn't your cup of tea gimme my money back.
If you only played 5 hours or less then sure i think steam should raise the time to 5 hours. Steam doesn't though and their limit is still 2 hours or 14 days.
If the resources are more than an abundant to make an informed purchase and you still buy it and then after that you are fully aware that you can return it with in a certain time. You can't really be upset at anyone but yourself is all im saying.
But joking aside, the point is that ppl feel entitled to a refund because the game is just not what they sold it to be, and ppl feel entitled after spending 5-15 hours on it because it takes that long to confirm that they were scammed. It's not just the usual entitlement issues that is so typical of the millennials and onward generations.
I for one, never believed a single word of the "this is gonna be all games in one, the last game you will ever need, above all". I never expected it to be that. I saw it was going to be a walking simulator with some basic grinding. But there is a difference between getting the game that is in the video on the game's steam page, and getting this piece of crap that is nowhere near it! It doesn't look anything like the "gameplay video". Even the list of features is total bs, and doesn't represent what you get in the slightest.
Yes, that does actually make everyone entitled to a refund, even by law in the more civilised parts of the world! And no, its not okay to say that "oh but you had eaten most of your cake so no refunds" when that cake was made of shit instead of chocolate. How can you expect them to not do this again and again if you just accept that you got scammed? Wouldn't you want your money back, if you found a half baked dead rat in the middle of your cake? By your standards, that would be perfectly fine and the guests fault, not the restaurants, since the guest ate half of the cake before getting to the dead rat inside, so he has entitlement issues and not a legit concern that he was sold a ratcake instead of the chocolate cake he ordered.
To go with another analogy, this is exactly like buying a brick in an iPhone box, with the dealer even showing you a real iPhone, but then switches up the phone for a brick without your knowledge. And even the brick is broken in half inside the box.
About the playtime thing, for a lot of us, we had to try to make the broken brick fit into the wall. I mean it took hours just to play with the settings, fix the damn game and make it work at all! 5 Hours would be a more realistic limit in the case of this game. I would likely extend that to 10-15 hours to get an actual feel for the game, and for the player to accept the fact that he won't find anything new and that it's a scam. With my 30 hours I'm not getting a refund, although I've "completed" about 5% of the game, I think. I barely visited 10-12 systems. One could also argue that I completed 95% of the game, because it's all the same all along, except for getting a bigger ship/inventory and getting to the center, which I'm no closer to. I only got my atlas pass v1! Would you say that I completed the game so I should not get a refund? My 30 hours says so, but my atlas pass and discovery list says the opposite, because with enough experience you can get your first pass in like one hours playtime. So for me it feels like I just completed the "demo" of the game, if there was one. And I didn't like it as much as I hoped for, and wouldn't buy it.
I can live with not getting my money back, but only because I kind of see it for what it is, a mediocre walking simulator with a lot of grinding. My brain sometimes needs this simplicity to let it rest and wander. I wouldn't mind getting some of my money back though, there are like 7656 other games exactly like this on steam early access for 5-15 bucks. That would have been an okay price.
My point is, I don't like it that ppl are just supposed to accept the fact that they have been scammed and just move on, when they could clearly do something about it, like ask for a refund even if the "policy" on steam shouldn't allow for one. And in this case it's not an "entitlement issue", it's a legit concern of being scammed, it's about standing up against future scams like this.
I would say all people, no matter their play time, should be entitled a refund. The developer blatantly lied and showed doctored videos of features that were not in the game. I honestly hope that his business goes under and he cannot make games ever again. That may sound cruel, but what he did amounted to stealing.
Even if half of his features weren't in the game, we've all bought into games where people failed to deliver, it would still be a better game than what it is now. Or if he sold it as Early Access and said more was to come, I'd be fine with that as it's not lying. But to sell a game as "finished" having almost none of the features promised is not any sort of business model. I don't care if their team works 24/7 to implement these things, they've already messed up.
But joking aside, the point is that ppl feel entitled to a refund because the game is just not what they sold it to be, and ppl feel entitled after spending 5-15 hours on it because it takes that long to confirm that they were scammed. It's not just the usual entitlement issues that is so typical of the millennials and onward generations.
I for one, never believed a single word of the "this is gonna be all games in one, the last game you will ever need, above all". I never expected it to be that. I saw it was going to be a walking simulator with some basic grinding. But there is a difference between getting the game that is in the video on the game's steam page, and getting this piece of crap that is nowhere near it! It doesn't look anything like the "gameplay video". Even the list of features is total bs, and doesn't represent what you get in the slightest.
Yes, that does actually make everyone entitled to a refund, even by law in the more civilised parts of the world! And no, its not okay to say that "oh but you had eaten most of your cake so no refunds" when that cake was made of shit instead of chocolate. How can you expect them to not do this again and again if you just accept that you got scammed? Wouldn't you want your money back, if you found a half baked dead rat in the middle of your cake? By your standards, that would be perfectly fine and the guests fault, not the restaurants, since the guest ate half of the cake before getting to the dead rat inside, so he has entitlement issues and not a legit concern that he was sold a ratcake instead of the chocolate cake he ordered.
To go with another analogy, this is exactly like buying a brick in an iPhone box, with the dealer even showing you a real iPhone, but then switches up the phone for a brick without your knowledge. And even the brick is broken in half inside the box.
About the playtime thing, for a lot of us, we had to try to make the broken brick fit into the wall. I mean it took hours just to play with the settings, fix the damn game and make it work at all! 5 Hours would be a more realistic limit in the case of this game. I would likely extend that to 10-15 hours to get an actual feel for the game, and for the player to accept the fact that he won't find anything new and that it's a scam. With my 30 hours I'm not getting a refund, although I've "completed" about 5% of the game, I think. I barely visited 10-12 systems. One could also argue that I completed 95% of the game, because it's all the same all along, except for getting a bigger ship/inventory and getting to the center, which I'm no closer to. I only got my atlas pass v1! Would you say that I completed the game so I should not get a refund? My 30 hours says so, but my atlas pass and discovery list says the opposite, because with enough experience you can get your first pass in like one hours playtime. So for me it feels like I just completed the "demo" of the game, if there was one. And I didn't like it as much as I hoped for, and wouldn't buy it.
I can live with not getting my money back, but only because I kind of see it for what it is, a mediocre walking simulator with a lot of grinding. My brain sometimes needs this simplicity to let it rest and wander. I wouldn't mind getting some of my money back though, there are like 7656 other games exactly like this on steam early access for 5-15 bucks. That would have been an okay price.
My point is, I don't like it that ppl are just supposed to accept the fact that they have been scammed and just move on, when they could clearly do something about it, like ask for a refund even if the "policy" on steam shouldn't allow for one. And in this case it's not an "entitlement issue", it's a legit concern of being scammed, it's about standing up against future scams like this.
Once again my point still stands. If given All the resources in the world to let you know The game is Grossly underwhelming and you are told the rules in which you are allowed to return. Then you chose to willfully ignore and technically break them its still on you.
Once again If you bite into the bread see the rat and complain. Then you get the money back. If for some weird reason you ate the whole rate, why would one doe this its a bad analogy, then i would say you might have just eating the evidence that you didn't like it. Then why would anyone believe you didn't like it and that there was even a rat.
This is less an issue of a product that some people consider to be a bad product, and more an issue of uninformed consumers having buying remorse even though given every chance to make an informed decision.
The only people that can complain about anything maybe are anyone who bought the game in preorder or with in the first minutes of release. On top of that bought it on console from a store. Which i would say would be harder to return it.
You being mad at him for what he did doesn't mean you couldn't get you refund. You were entitled to it and you were aware of the stipulations that came with it.
Also
You act as if this is the first time a game wasn't anything like its tech demo.
The bouncer Tech demo TGS 1999
The Bouncer The way it actually was
Its funny it seems like the HYPE band wagon for NMS just moved from liking to hating
People dont want to leave bad reviews because he lied or because the game wasn't as good as it could have been. They want to complain leave bad reviews and demand refunds no matter what cause its the cool thing to do. The Mob mentality "Oh man look how crazy this circus is getting im gonna jump on the HATE HYPE TRAIN"
Once again my point still stands. If given All the resources in the world to let you know The game is Grossly underwhelming and you are told the rules in which you are allowed to return. Then you chose to willfully ignore and technically break them its still on you.
Once again If you bite into the bread see the rat and complain. Then you get the money back. If for some weird reason you ate the whole rate, why would one doe this its a bad analogy, then i would say you might have just eating the evidence that you didn't like it. Then why would anyone believe you didn't like it and that there was even a rat.
This is less an issue of a product that some people consider to be a bad product, and more an issue of uninformed consumers having buying remorse even though given every chance to make an informed decision.
The only people that can complain about anything maybe are anyone who bought the game in preorder or with in the first minutes of release. On top of that bought it on console from a store. Which i would say would be harder to return it.
I've placed my answers/arguments into spoiler tags cos they are really very very long, and probably only make sense to me, at this very moment :D read at your own risk :D
I think the point of the cake analogy still stands, no matter how you twist it.
The point is that you have to eat SOME of it before you realize it has the rat inside. For some, that takes 5 minutes, for other it might take 50 hours. Time spent doesn't mean you actually enjoyed the product. You might have spent 20 hours looking for the promised content (like I did), because you were told by the developers several times that it takes a lot of time to find anything in the game. Also, if you only spend 1-2 hours in it, how are you supposed to judge a game that takes "hundreds of hours to complete"? I could go on why "time spent ingame" is not a good measure for anything.
My phone analogy explains it better though. The point is that you got something that is clearly not what you asked for. It doesn't matter if you flown to the center of the universe or, if you "finished" the game or not, it doesn't matter how long it took, it doesn't matter how much time you spent looking for the things you were told you would get, the simple fact is that the product you got is not the product you were shown!
"uninformed consumers having buying remorse even though given every chance to make an informed decision."
Seriously? Are you effing kidding me?
That is the biggest lie, it is the whole issue behind it! There was no true information available, only lies! Yeah if you followed the news, you would find that someone claimed he had played the game a few weeks before release, and didn't like it. This small thing was so overly broadcast that ppl started to believe it was fake, with good reason, as these are usually nothing but publicity stunts. The actual videos of this supposed real gameplay were taken down instantly, and couldn't be found anywhere, unless you knew you had to search pronsites for it.
This was clearly something that your average consumer doesn't associate with gameplay videos of unreleased games. Everything else you could find up until the PS4 release was fake propaganda, the lies. After the PS4 release, some short videos went up on youtube about ppl being happy, or angry, or more often then not, totally confused. That was the first real bit of information, but it's worth noting that sony probably payed to big name youtubers to shill the game for them, even though it was clearly a game they didn't much enjoy. I watched a few, and they were mostly suffering but still shouting about how great it is. Also, we were told it's a hundreds of hours long game, so an hour long youtube video of someone starting out shouldn't be taken as evidence that the game is a scam and missing 3/4 of the stuff that was promised. It's perfectly logical that you would need 5-10 hours of ingame progression to see all these things. So when it came to the PC release, your "well informed" consumer could only know that the game starts out in about the same way for everyone, there is a lot of inventory managment, lots of walking, and some shooting of rocks and animals to progress. They had no chance of knowing if the amazing things that were promised would show up a bit later in the game, like the multiplayer, the packs of animals, freigher convoys, and the lot...
So I bought the game about an hour before release, because I was stupid enough to believe that what has been shown for years as actual Gameplay, NOT a Tech Demo, was what I was going to get. I guess I was stupid to believe that what I've been shown through countless interviews/play sessions, and shown on the storefront on Steam, had nothing to do with the actual product.
Sony did everything in their powers to stop ppl getting real information before release, because all you could find on the internet at that point was their old propaganda material filled with misinformation.
Look at the steam store page for the game right now and tell me if that's the actual game you see there! It still doesn't have a single real screenshot from the released game! It still has the same fake video of fake gameplay! Those clearly have nothing to do with the actual product you get.
By the way, that fact in itself entitles every single person on steam to get a refund, as it is a clear cut case of false advertising. They sold you something that was clearly not the product you were shown. It's as simple as that.
You are suggesting that ppl should do everything in their powers to get informed about the stuff they buy, and I agree with that to some degree. In case of those buying the game now, putting 20 hours in, and then deciding they want a refund, should have known better by now. All the game news outlets are full of real info.
The problem here is that almost all of the information you could get Before release was fake. So looking through the usual channels, like checking gameplay videos, interviews and such, didn't actually provide the necessary info. It simply mislead the buyer.
You being mad at him for what he did doesn't mean you couldn't get you refund. You were entitled to it and you were aware of the stipulations that came with it.
Also
You act as if this is the first time a game wasn't anything like its tech demo.
The bouncer Tech demo TGS 1999
The Bouncer The way it actually was
Its funny it seems like the HYPE band wagon for NMS just moved from liking to hating
People dont want to leave bad reviews because he lied or because the game wasn't as good as it could have been. They want to complain leave bad reviews and demand refunds no matter what cause its the cool thing to do. The Mob mentality "Oh man look how crazy this circus is getting im gonna jump on the HATE HYPE TRAIN"
You say that we act like this didn't happen before. Why should we act otherwise?
Why should we just accept the fact that we got scammed and move along? Your point about this is what? That because it happened before, we shouldn't believe anything we see in gameplay/tech demos? If you believed that, you wouldn't have bought a game package for Star Citizen in the first place right? Because it was just a fake tech demo, right?
This mentality only ensures that companies like Hello Games can pull off scams like this again and again, without real consequence.
You may want to live in a world where you have to scrutinise everything that you might want to buy, but I would rather not. And the best thing I can do about it is to ask for a refund until I get it, because currently that is my only option to make them responsible for their actions.
I gotta agree about the hype wagon moving to hate. I see that as well. Some ppl like to belong, no matter what the group is about. Personally I don't care about it. I was sceptical about the hype train, as a matter of fact I actually thought this would turn out to be an overhyped boring game, back 2 years ago. Then I changed my mind because SC is turning out to be pretty much fun, and I opened my mind, stopped hating, and gave it chance. Worst, Idea, Ever! lol
I couldn't care less about the current hate train, it's well deserved, just maybe not for the reasons ppl hate it. Others may board whichever train they like, I'll fly instead! :D
As I said before I don't hate the game! I just wouldn't mind getting my money back, and then paying a fair price for it, which for me is 20usd max. It's a mediocre regular indie endless survival clone, which is half finished as it is. The problem is that it was sold for More then the new Dues Ex which is actually a good game with a lot of content put into it, and it's actually a finished game! These type of games belong in the 20usd and below steam early access indi survival category and price range, and I wouldn't mind paying that much for it once it gets really finished.
I actually noticed in a few videos of them showing off the game that the creator played while media people watched and when the media people were given the controls it was only for a few minutes. This should have set off red flags, but I was sacked in by the "gameplay" like so many others.
The Smarties are actually calling the 3.0 demo a tech demo that has no way of reaching the PU. Should we believe them all and immediately pull out of SC?
This has always been around. Companies embellish their games. But Hello Games took it too far and blatantly lied. This isn't the first, nor last, company to do this, but they were the first in an Era where information is spread like wildfire.
There will be repercussions from this. Whether that's a show from gamers that we won't stand for company's pulling shot like this, or whether we sit back and take the loss and show we don't care what we're given we'll just buy and buy any old shot that's put out there...that's up to us.
I would've kept the game if it had been advertised as an alpha. Not sure I'd buy a $60 alpha though. $40 as an alpha would've been fine and <$20 finished product. Problem is that this was advertised as a Sony backed AAA game. Sure, some AAA games such and aren't my style, but NMS was EXACTLY my style. It's not an issue of it being a bad game, I actually enjoyed it a little*, it's the message we're sending developers by sitting idly and letting this company rip us off!
*Whether anyone enjoyed their time or not, this game was a scam!
P.S. Technically this was even a finished game, unlike what some are claiming, it has a beginning, a middle, and an ending. It's not missing sections which make it unplayable, nor does it have dead end quests which go nowhere. The argument isn't that we didn't get a full game, it's that we bought one thing and we're given another. That is the very definition of a scam.
I've placed my answers/arguments into spoiler tags cos they are really very very long, and probably only make sense to me, at this very moment :D read at your own risk :D
I think the point of the cake analogy still stands, no matter how you twist it.
The point is that you have to eat SOME of it before you realize it has the rat inside. For some, that takes 5 minutes, for other it might take 50 hours. Time spent doesn't mean you actually enjoyed the product. You might have spent 20 hours looking for the promised content (like I did), because you were told by the developers several times that it takes a lot of time to find anything in the game. Also, if you only spend 1-2 hours in it, how are you supposed to judge a game that takes "hundreds of hours to complete"? I could go on why "time spent ingame" is not a good measure for anything.
My phone analogy explains it better though. The point is that you got something that is clearly not what you asked for. It doesn't matter if you flown to the center of the universe or, if you "finished" the game or not, it doesn't matter how long it took, it doesn't matter how much time you spent looking for the things you were told you would get, the simple fact is that the product you got is not the product you were shown!
"uninformed consumers having buying remorse even though given every chance to make an informed decision."
Seriously? Are you effing kidding me?
That is the biggest lie, it is the whole issue behind it! There was no true information available, only lies! Yeah if you followed the news, you would find that someone claimed he had played the game a few weeks before release, and didn't like it. This small thing was so overly broadcast that ppl started to believe it was fake, with good reason, as these are usually nothing but publicity stunts. The actual videos of this supposed real gameplay were taken down instantly, and couldn't be found anywhere, unless you knew you had to search pronsites for it.
This was clearly something that your average consumer doesn't associate with gameplay videos of unreleased games. Everything else you could find up until the PS4 release was fake propaganda, the lies. After the PS4 release, some short videos went up on youtube about ppl being happy, or angry, or more often then not, totally confused. That was the first real bit of information, but it's worth noting that sony probably payed to big name youtubers to shill the game for them, even though it was clearly a game they didn't much enjoy. I watched a few, and they were mostly suffering but still shouting about how great it is. Also, we were told it's a hundreds of hours long game, so an hour long youtube video of someone starting out shouldn't be taken as evidence that the game is a scam and missing 3/4 of the stuff that was promised. It's perfectly logical that you would need 5-10 hours of ingame progression to see all these things. So when it came to the PC release, your "well informed" consumer could only know that the game starts out in about the same way for everyone, there is a lot of inventory managment, lots of walking, and some shooting of rocks and animals to progress. They had no chance of knowing if the amazing things that were promised would show up a bit later in the game, like the multiplayer, the packs of animals, freigher convoys, and the lot...
So I bought the game about an hour before release, because I was stupid enough to believe that what has been shown for years as actual Gameplay, NOT a Tech Demo, was what I was going to get. I guess I was stupid to believe that what I've been shown through countless interviews/play sessions, and shown on the storefront on Steam, had nothing to do with the actual product.
Sony did everything in their powers to stop ppl getting real information before release, because all you could find on the internet at that point was their old propaganda material filled with misinformation.
Look at the steam store page for the game right now and tell me if that's the actual game you see there! It still doesn't have a single real screenshot from the released game! It still has the same fake video of fake gameplay! Those clearly have nothing to do with the actual product you get.
By the way, that fact in itself entitles every single person on steam to get a refund, as it is a clear cut case of false advertising. They sold you something that was clearly not the product you were shown. It's as simple as that.
You are suggesting that ppl should do everything in their powers to get informed about the stuff they buy, and I agree with that to some degree. In case of those buying the game now, putting 20 hours in, and then deciding they want a refund, should have known better by now. All the game news outlets are full of real info.
The problem here is that almost all of the information you could get Before release was fake. So looking through the usual channels, like checking gameplay videos, interviews and such, didn't actually provide the necessary info. It simply mislead the buyer.
You say that we act like this didn't happen before. Why should we act otherwise?
Why should we just accept the fact that we got scammed and move along? Your point about this is what? That because it happened before, we shouldn't believe anything we see in gameplay/tech demos? If you believed that, you wouldn't have bought a game package for Star Citizen in the first place right? Because it was just a fake tech demo, right?
This mentality only ensures that companies like Hello Games can pull off scams like this again and again, without real consequence.
You may want to live in a world where you have to scrutinise everything that you might want to buy, but I would rather not. And the best thing I can do about it is to ask for a refund until I get it, because currently that is my only option to make them responsible for their actions.
I gotta agree about the hype wagon moving to hate. I see that as well. Some ppl like to belong, no matter what the group is about. Personally I don't care about it. I was sceptical about the hype train, as a matter of fact I actually thought this would turn out to be an overhyped boring game, back 2 years ago. Then I changed my mind because SC is turning out to be pretty much fun, and I opened my mind, stopped hating, and gave it chance. Worst, Idea, Ever! lol
I couldn't care less about the current hate train, it's well deserved, just maybe not for the reasons ppl hate it. Others may board whichever train they like, I'll fly instead! :D
As I said before I don't hate the game! I just wouldn't mind getting my money back, and then paying a fair price for it, which for me is 20usd max. It's a mediocre regular indie endless survival clone, which is half finished as it is. The problem is that it was sold for More then the new Dues Ex which is actually a good game with a lot of content put into it, and it's actually a finished game! These type of games belong in the 20usd and below steam early access indi survival category and price range, and I wouldn't mind paying that much for it once it gets really finished.
I actually pre-ordered it months in advance based off "gameplay" videos which were later revealed to be tech demos.
I actually noticed in a few videos of them showing off the game that the creator played while media people watched and when the media people were given the controls it was only for a few minutes. This should have set off red flags, but I was sacked in by the "gameplay" like so many others.
The Smarties are actually calling the 3.0 demo a tech demo that has no way of reaching the PU. Should we believe them all and immediately pull out of SC?
This has always been around. Companies embellish their games. But Hello Games took it too far and blatantly lied. This isn't the first, nor last, company to do this, but they were the first in an Era where information is spread like wildfire.
There will be repercussions from this. Whether that's a show from gamers that we won't stand for company's pulling shot like this, or whether we sit back and take the loss and show we don't care what we're given we'll just buy and buy any old shot that's put out there...that's up to us.
I would've kept the game if it had been advertised as an alpha. Not sure I'd buy a $60 alpha though. $40 as an alpha would've been fine and <$20 finished product. Problem is that this was advertised as a Sony backed AAA game. Sure, some AAA games such and aren't my style, but NMS was EXACTLY my style. It's not an issue of it being a bad game, I actually enjoyed it a little*, it's the message we're sending developers by sitting idly and letting this company rip us off!
*Whether anyone enjoyed their time or not, this game was a scam!
P.S. Technically this was even a finished game, unlike what some are claiming, it has a beginning, a middle, and an ending. It's not missing sections which make it unplayable, nor does it have dead end quests which go nowhere. The argument isn't that we didn't get a full game, it's that we bought one thing and we're given another. That is the very definition of a scam.
1. Don't preorder games
2. I know its hard to do this and avoid spoilers but watch others play the game first
3. Return the game in the time given to do so
it seems pretty simple to me all analogies aside. When it comes down to it my analogy just explains why i think people demanding a refund after "beating" the game and doing "everything" the game has to offer. While it feels like your analogies are rooted more in personal justification that maybe you should have waited or just not purchased the game.
I have to say though you guys passion about this amuses me and its been fun playing devils advocate
It now kinda feels like the only reason you keep responding is cause you think if you dont people will see it as admitting defeat. so its become this cat and mouse game to get the last word in LOL
They are more transparent about what hey show and what we can actually play. So far i haven't been disappointed, and aside from Star Marine they keep delivering on their product. They showed ArC Corp we got arc corp as it was presented. they showed 2.0 and we got 2.0 crusader in all its glory. So im not really worried about 3.0. Also depending on what they show at Citizen con and if Star Marine is out around then I feel just as happy about what ive spent as i would have playing WOW or some other MMO for years was pumping money into that.
The other thing is
theres Pre ordering a game that was already being paid for for development by a publisher.
and theres
Funding the type of project you want to see made.
Until something more commercially viable comes out on SC's end to show off that it is a full fledged game. There are gonna be people that doubt it and people with doubt that paid for it.
1. Don't preorder games
2. I know its hard to do this and avoid spoilers but watch others play the game first
3. Return the game in the time given to do so
it seems pretty simple to me all analogies aside. When it comes down to it my analogy just explains why i think people demanding a refund after "beating" the game and doing "everything" the game has to offer. While it feels like your analogies are rooted more in personal justification that maybe you should have waited or just not purchased the game.
I have to say though you guys passion about this amuses me and its been fun playing devils advocate
It now kinda feels like the only reason you keep responding is cause you think if you dont people will see it as admitting defeat. so its become this cat and mouse game to get the last word in LOL
1. Don't preorder, don't buy before it's released. Well yes, this seems to hold true because of ppl like you just ignoring it, when those who preorder get scammed. By the way you look at it we should just accept the fact and let them get away with it. I don't think that is the way to go, and I think as long as there is a way, in this case getting a refund, we should pursue it, in the hopes that one day we can preorder shit we like without getting scammed so much.
2. You either didn't read what I written or ignored it on purpose. The facts are that if you wanted to buy the game around release, even like 1-3 days after it, even watching others play it couldn't fully inform you. Just read the facts and you will realise, why in this particular case, this argument is BS. Also, why would I be required to spoil the game for myself before buying it? This is just wrong in so many ways.
3. Yeah, I can't agree with that all. Read back why it's BS as well, because you clearly didn't, or again, you are just ignoring what actually happened.
My analogies are not personal justification, they are simply describing what actually happened, and why everyone should be given a refund if they ask for it. Getting scammed, getting sold something that is not the thing that you ordered, justifies a refund. "Beating the game" has nothing to do with this. Also, we've been told a thousand times this game has no ending and cannot be beaten in the common sense... so how can you tell if someone did everything they can in the game, when we were told it's endless? :D
Analogy time, YaY :D :
In this game's case, it's like buying a ticket for a 2,5 hour movie that you really wanted to see, while knowing that you can only get your money back if you got out after the first 15 minutes. Should you be expecting it to go wrong, and get out before your times up? Should this be your main concern, instead of getting pumped up to finally see the movie you wanted to? I don't think this should be the standard, and thankfully the world isn't such a bad place yet.
Anyways, You go in the theatre, and they only show you the first 12 minutes, then the screen goes black. The manager comes in and tells you that they will continue the showing shortly. Wouldn't you sit there, expecting it to happen? You would, for half an hour at least... But by the time you realise they are not showing the rest, you would get out. But you will get told you can't get your money back because you were in the room for almost an hour, well over the 15 minutes. So you should just walk away, without your money or having watched the movie? You are saying that one should. And that, my friend, is simply wrong.
They are more transparent about what hey show and what we can actually play. So far i haven't been disappointed, and aside from Star Marine they keep delivering on their product. They showed ArC Corp we got arc corp as it was presented. they showed 2.0 and we got 2.0 crusader in all its glory. So im not really worried about 3.0. Also depending on what they show at Citizen con and if Star Marine is out around then I feel just as happy about what ive spent as i would have playing WOW or some other MMO for years was pumping money into that.
The other thing is
theres Pre ordering a game that was already being paid for for development by a publisher.
and theres
Funding the type of project you want to see made.
Until something more commercially viable comes out on SC's end to show off that it is a full fledged game. There are gonna be people that doubt it and people with doubt that paid for it.
Of course SC is a totally different beast! No argument there! I was just pointing out that by your standards, everyone should have just waited for it to come out, watched some gameplay videos (which would have undoubtedly spoiled at least some of the game), and only then bought it! By your arguments, SC wouldn't even exist.
I'm a very early backer, and I knew it was an investment into a hope, that something great will come out at the other end. I was losing that hope, especially when 2.4 came out and it was a mess with some irrelevant "features" like getting another use prompt, this time for a clothes shop. It was just more assetts, no progress shown really, with the "persistence" being totally broken. But the hope is back after seeing the 3.0 demo, and the first improvements to actual gameplay since 2.0 came out are live in 2.5, and I'm enjoying it for the first time since I played arena commander over a year ago. I got my hoped back, and still believe this will be a good game.
This is ofc different to preordering something that you see actual gameplay footage of, along with screenshots and a feature list clearly stating what you will be given on release. It's just makes me sad that you think devs should get away with showing this stuff, and then not actually delivering that stuff, and blame the scammed buyers instead of the devs. It just makes no sense, and makes this world a worse place.
""It now kinda feels like the only reason you keep responding is cause you think if you dont people will see it as admitting defeat. so its become this cat and mouse game to get the last word in LOL""
Hahahaha, what defeat? I didn't know this was a battle of some kind, cos I can't see an enemy anywhere! I thought we were having a nice little debate, thus I've given you quiet a few logical and sound reasons why you're argument is wrong, and instead of arguing those, you've kept twisting and ignoring my arguments so you didn't have to actually defend your arguments against mine or anyone else's. I think that on the internetz that is the definition of a troll? Maybe, I can't be bothered to look it up. Also you think that it would mean admitting "defeat" if I stopped? hahahaa... Aaah, you really made me laugh with that one :D
Nah, I don't do this to "win", actually I just enjoy writing. Also, sometimes like arguing with ppl who just don't want to listen to reason, illogical ppl, and those who think they are better cos they are not "following the herd", even when joining that herd is the right choice in every possible way. It can be an interesting and fun exercise :D Sometimes, It's even possible to make them see reason, that can be a great experience.
Oh, and here's your prize, mister devils advocate:
You Win! I admit Defeat! We should all just accept that if we get scammed we shouldn't seek recompense, or justice, cos we should have just known better!
Omg, what will happen to me now, everyone in this thread will think I'm weak... /jumps out the window and splatters on the ground 6 stories below, in shame/
There, I hope that makes you happy :) I had enough fun for now, I'll let someone else take over if the wish to.
As you clearly cannot be convinced, and you are not doing this to have an actual debate, because you just keep twisting and ignoring for god knows what reason, I'll just take my leave. You can have that last word if you wish, and don't forget, you Win! :D
TL,DR.: I spent way too much time arguing for something that is clearly the right thing, with someone who doesn't actually care about the actual argument, so I'm off to paint some SC spaceships with my new airbrush instead!
In the end you don't really see my point nor do your analogies make sense because making of a hypothetical analogy of a theoretical situation to suit you argument is not a good argument
I am not saying developers should get away with it. I'm saying is that as a consumer you have to speak with your wallet. Pre ordering is the crux of this statement of we aren't gonna put up with this anymore. Its really the only way to stop it. Though if you want to take a risk and support something do it, but do it knowing that theres always a chance you might get burned. Don't let hype feed your interest in a project.
this is how i feel
wasn't trying to get you so fired up as a troll but i do enjoy the discussion.
But if you still feel im a troll
Love ya fellow Testie may we not regret the $100s we've spent on SC in the future
I don't even know why this is an arguement. There are laws about this sort of thing for a reason. They are very clear.
False Advertisement: (as defined in the Lanham Act of 1946)
"Any advertising or promotion that misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of goods, services, or commercial activities:
Burden of Proof: (needs to prove five things)
A false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity.
The statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion f it's targeted audience.
The deception is likely to affect the purchasing decision of that audience
The advertising involves services or goods in an interstate commerce capacity
The deception has or is likely to result in injury (injury includes monetary in trade law).
You can easily check all those boxes with No Man's Sky. Like I said, it is law. This law also makes NO caveats for how long you have owned or used the subject of the false advertisement. It's the FTC, they don't need caveats...
As far as my return, I have been refused a few times already. I will give them one more chance before I add my reports to the growing stacks of complaints with the FTC, the BBB, and with my CC company.
Like I have said before, for me, it is not about the $60. It's about game developers saying whatever the hell they want to sell a game. False advertisement is illegal. Why the video game industry has gotten away with it so long, I have no idea. It has led us to where we are today and to developers like Hello Games. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It should have been a long ways back, but here we are. If Hello Games is allowed to get away with this, just imagine what the next shady developer will say.
My eyes hurt after all that reading.
But just to throw a couple of small points in for fun:
There were no reviews before the release so purchasers could not make a truly informed decision, even with all these resources at our finger tips.
Basically all videos and info was official releases from Hello Games. So a bit one sided.
The game is a product. Consumers have protection from faulty products. Be it lies or missing features, if the product advertised is not what you paid for, you deserve protection.
I see both sides of the debate, but personally don't think the restaurant example applies to this situation. They are quite different situations.
I do have to laugh that the catch phase after release became - it's not for everyone.......
I was lucky in the fact that the shop I brought the game from gives you a week to return for a full refund/shop credit. I would have invested about 2 x 3 hour sessions into it before returning it 12 hours later.
In this case I fully support people wanting a refund.
