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Sraika

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Dude, what are you talking about? I know Canadians that own these same weapons. One even borrowed my father's and brought it across the border without issue. Canada also allows short barreled rifles, which are regulated here.
on the other hand, we don't have a travel warning :p
more seriously, gun control is a fair bit stricter here than it is in the US, and has some pretty severe limits on what's allowed or not
for example, magazine size is limited to rather small amounts, many types of gun (as in several hundred) are outright prohibited, and even more are only allowed to be used at a shooting range.
hell, you need a licenses to drive them back and forth, in some cases
after 15 mins on their website, it is clear they have a political agenda.
I think Colion Noir lays it out really well.
backed up by FBI charts https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/expanded-homicide
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8c2wKISv0o
ill watch the video later, but as far as their political agenda goes, it is an organization that supports human rights, on a global scale
like, that's literally their agenda
 

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Bambooza

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Many thanks for the link 🙂

202 years to get it passed? Woah!

Are there any instances where amendments have been changed or updated after that have passed in order to modernize them?
the one prior to that only took 100 days to pass. and was done in 1971. Amendments like any law can be amended but it goes through the same process. An example would be the 18th Amendment prohibiting the manufacturing or sale of alcohol within the United States was amended by the 21st Amendment which repealed it.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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the one prior to that only took 100 days to pass. and was done in 1971. Amendments like any law can be amended but it goes through the same process. An example would be the 18th Amendment prohibiting the manufacturing or sale of alcohol within the United States was amended by the 21st Amendment which repealed it.
Ace, well fingers crossed.

Thinking about it considering the amount of change that has happened between 1791 and now, perhaps by the time the second amendment is repealed and updated by the 32nd or whichever one it might end up being, they'll have found some way to weaponise leaves or something and it'll be out of date before the ink has dried.
 
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MurderingPsycho

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@NaffNaffBobFace, so they are mostly spread through different documents from personal letters, addresses to congress, the constitutional convention and books and newspapers so they can be a bit hard to find. If you take the time to go through the websites of national history libraries you should be able to find a lot more.

I took these off of another site for convenience. If they sound a bit strange, just keep in mind that the idea that individual citizens couldn't own firearms never would have occurred to most of them at this point (they had just had to fight the world's greatest superpower). But there was some argument about whether or not people should be required to keep and bear arms.


"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
 

Bambooza

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Ace, well fingers crossed.

Thinking about it considering the amount of change that has happened between 1791 and now, perhaps by the time the second amendment is repealed and updated by the 32nd or whichever one it might end up being, they'll have found some way to weaponise leaves or something and it'll be out of date before the ink has dried.

Honestly as scary as guns are to people what gives me nightmares is the ease at which gene editing has become and the lower cost of CRISPR/Cas. Where guns and planes in the hands of those who wish to cause harm are limited to a small incident those same individuals with gene-spliced black plague can kill millions if not billions.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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@NaffNaffBobFace, so they are mostly spread through different documents from personal letters, addresses to congress, the constitutional convention and books and newspapers so they can be a bit hard to find. If you take the time to go through the websites of national history libraries you should be able to find a lot more.

I took these off of another site for convenience. If they sound a bit strange, just keep in mind that the idea that individual citizens couldn't own firearms never would have occurred to most of them at this point (they had just had to fight the world's greatest superpower). But there was some argument about whether or not people should be required to keep and bear arms.


"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
Thanks! 🙂 This one really puts it in context:

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

Considering it was a time when Slavery was legal, I totally get that now. Not sure if it's still within context for the modern era so perhaps "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful non-freedom" would be an okay update.
 

Montoya

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an outright ban vs controls and better regulation
Majority of Americans are for better regulations.

Even most of the NRA members polled said they would be in favor of background checks for all firearms.

The problem is, as mentioned before, criminals dont care, and the most recent batch of shooters would have all passed background checks.

That kid that shot up the garlic festival? Clean record.

The Walmart kid? Same, no criminal background.
 

sum1

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but as far as their political agenda goes, it is an organization that supports human rights, on a global scale
like, that's literally their agenda
So I can't fully speak for all their ideals or anything, what I found worrying is one-sided reporting. As an Independent, I feel there are enough faults to go around on both sides. so I am fine with calling out the person on one side, as long as you call out the person on the other if they do the same thing. two of the easiest ways to do this, currently in my mind, are if you are willing to call out Trump for bad conditions in ICE facilities without accepting the first pictures were from 2014 and Obama, then you are being one-sided on the issue. Likewise, if you want to say the Texas shooter had Trump leaning you have to accept the same thing about the Ohio shooter, but with Warren. So the articles I saw on that site pointed the blame only on one side. making e believe there is biased in reporting here.
Even most of the NRA members polled said they would be in favor of background checks for all firearms.
It is already federal law that any company that sells a gun must run a background check. the only none checked guns are person-to-person sales, and that would be imposable to enforce.
Majority of Americans are for better regulations.
So here is one of the issues I pointed to before, the US has over 300 federal gun laws, and over 20,000 state laws. I am all for helping, but how is one more law going to help? I want to talk real numbers, really helping, not just "I'm helping" memes. So yes if you give me a law that will help let's do it! but it better be backed up by data and facts.
 
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MurderingPsycho

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Thanks! 🙂 This one really puts it in context:

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

Considering it was a time when Slavery was legal, I totally get that now. Not sure if it's still within context for the modern era so perhaps "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful non-freedom" would be an okay update.
Yeah, I really hate the way people talk about Jefferson these days. They like to point out the fact that he owned slaves but ignore the fact that he opposed slavery. He was furious that he couldn't free his slaves. He wanted a clause in the constitution that would disallow all new slaves and make the children born to slaves free. If he had gotten his way, slavery would have ended around the same time without bloodshed. To be fair, he didn't want an immediate end because he was afraid that if they were all freed at once they would take up arms and kill their former masters. Considering what the colonists had just done, I can't really blame him for thinking that.

But personally, I prefer Madison's quote as it's the basis for the amendment.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
 

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Majority of Americans are for better regulations.

Even most of the NRA members polled said they would be in favor of background checks for all firearms.

The problem is, as mentioned before, criminals dont care, and the most recent batch of shooters would have all passed background checks.

That kid that shot up the garlic festival? Clean record.

The Walmart kid? Same, no criminal background.
Despite this, I've never had a problem with background checks as long as it doesn't lead to a registry that a shady politician can use against people. I'd also like to see more training. I used to target shoot a lot and its surprising how many people are just accidents waiting to happen. There's nothing like playing dodge the gun barrel at the range, although most seem to be getting better about booting these kinds of people.
 
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Sraika

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So I can't fully speak for all their ideals or anything, what I found worrying is one-sided reporting. As an Independent, I feel there are enough faults to go around on both sides. so I am fine with calling out the person on one side, as long as you call out the person on the other if they do the same thing. two of the easiest ways to do this, currently in my mind, are if you are willing to call out Trump for bad conditions in ICE facilities without accepting the first pictures were from 2014 and Obama, then you are being one-sided on the issue. Likewise, if you want to say the Texas shooter had Trump leaning you have to accept the same thing about the Ohio shooter, but with Warren. So the articles I saw on that site pointed the blame only on one side. making e believe there is biased in reporting here.
that's fair, and i didn't bother to read any of their other articles lol
i agree that they should be pointing out issues regardless of who is causing them, but i would say they are mostly accomplishing that regardless
i can think of explanations for the ICE thing, but im not going to argue that one since that veers from the main topic
i don't know how politically motivated either shooting was at all, but i do feel like a politically motivated shooting from a trump supporter is arguably more worrying than a politically motivated shooting from another politician's supporter. trump is significantly less condemning towards shootings than anyone else on the political field right now, afaik.
 
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MurderingPsycho

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That's good then. Parents must find it very difficult not to get their kids .22's and the like, considering the culture.
Not exactly the same thing. The kid can't buy the gun or ammo but the parents can buy them and allow the kid to use them. For hunting, I believe that you have to be supervised until age 16, at least in NY.
 
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ShakyWater

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As a general rule, it's not wise to let kids be exposed to high amounts of anything without supervision and consideration. They aren't adults. Their brains are still developing. Lots of things that would be fine for adults can cause damage to their wee little jello brains. Keeping the exposure to gratuitous violence down to a minimum isn't going to hurt them.

Given the high stakes competitive nature of the modern technical world, it's probably not doing them any favors to be wasting dozens of hours in fruitless button mashing when they could be doing something more fruitful; like playing math blaster.
 

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So here is one of the issues I pointed to before, the US has over 300 federal gun laws, and over 20,000 state laws. I am all for helping, but how is one more law going to help?
Well, for one, stop with the stupid laws.

The assault rifle ban in California did not help the garlic festival.

Its not about what kind of gun, its what kind of person.

You want an assault rifle? Sure thing! Just get a doctors note saying you are not on any kind of depression or anxiety meds, that you are of sound mind and character. Background check and references.
 

MurderingPsycho

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Well, for one, stop with the stupid laws.
You want an assault rifle? Sure thing! Just get a doctors note saying you are not on any kind of depression or anxiety meds, that you are of sound mind and character. Background check and references.
Ummm............................this would probably require a new law. Seriously though, I'm not a huge fan of references because they require you to add more people to "The List", and I'm a little touchy on this because New York's list of pistol owners was made public. Full dox, names, addresses and all. Which basically made it a shopping catalog for criminals. https://www.theverge.com/2012/12/25/3802960/new-york-newspaper-posts-map-with-names-addresses-of-gun-owners

But a shrink? Fuck yes. Psychiatric care (care, not sit down and be quiet pills) for teens would probably help too.
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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Majority of Americans are for better regulations.

Even most of the NRA members polled said they would be in favor of background checks for all firearms.

The problem is, as mentioned before, criminals dont care, and the most recent batch of shooters would have all passed background checks.

That kid that shot up the garlic festival? Clean record.

The Walmart kid? Same, no criminal background.
Thank you, Glorious Leader!

I think this is why most other countries have stricter controls - it removes the lowest common denominator which in the case of mass-shootings is the dude who finally snaps one day after decades of dormancy and goes postal, the origin of the phrase "going postal" being just that...

I get the second amendment. I get the interpretation that has been made of it based upon a great many writings and trying to work out what the words "well-regulated" and "infringed" meant in the 1790's. I get the circumstances at the time it was implemented with legal slavery and the threat of invasion that no longer exist making it an amendment outside of it's time, and an underlying inherent lack of trust in the system that the people themselves put in place every time they vote. And I am glad to hear it appears the majority are willing to accept reforms. Good news.

I am not sure what it's going to take to get reform in place though. The UK had Dunblane, where a guy took his four legally owned and licensed handguns into a classroom, 2 Browning 9mm's, 2 Smith and Wesson Magnums, and killed 15 children mostly aged 5, two teachers and himself. Just like your examples he had legally held weapons and a clean record - reform happened immediately. Not banned outright, you can own an Uzi in the UK. You just have to prove you are not nuts and have an actual reason for having one other than "I really want an Uzi."

The US has had many such incidents with legally held weapons or weapons legally held in the family home that a member of that family had access to, such as Sandy Hook. Reform that helps people be less lethal while still having uninfringed access to their arms seems to be very far away.

Who knows, maybe Americas example is actually saving lives in other countries by regularly showing what the cost for that particular freedom is...?
 
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Michael

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Majority of Americans are for better regulations.

Even most of the NRA members polled said they would be in favor of background checks for all firearms.

The problem is, as mentioned before, criminals dont care, and the most recent batch of shooters would have all passed background checks.

That kid that shot up the garlic festival? Clean record.

The Walmart kid? Same, no criminal background.
I'm clearly an outsider to that topic coming from a country with relativly strict gun control.

But hows the overall statistic about that?. Using single events, to emotionalize a debate, won't help in a constructive discussion.
Mass shootings and amok runs are something completely different than criminals using a gun. The whole motive for someone to snap and kill others is different to the criminal mind and motivation.

How many people kill others by accident?
How many people killed other with guns who wouldn't pass the background check?
Where do the criminals get their guns from? (theft?, bought through some dark channels?)
What are the social and economic factors of people abusing guns?
 
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NaffNaffBobFace

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...the only none checked guns are person-to-person sales, and that would be impossable to enforce.
Just like with cars. No, wait a minute, isn't that the pink slips/V5's are for...? In the UK you have to send a part of the V5 off to advise the registered owner has changed and they are sent a new one.
 
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Thalstan

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Well, for one, stop with the stupid laws.

The assault rifle ban in California did not help the garlic festival.

Its not about what kind of gun, its what kind of person.

You want an assault rifle? Sure thing! Just get a doctors note saying you are not on any kind of depression or anxiety meds, that you are of sound mind and character. Background check and references.
Unfortunately, this can also work against people who may have a legitimate need for a gun for personal security.

A friend of mine who worked with me about 10 years ago had gone through a really rough divorce. Her husband made some threats, but nothing could be proved. She wanted to purchase a handgun for the protection of her and her daughter. Unfortunately, she lived in a state where even though the authorities are supposed to issue on a shall permit basis, the local institutions demanded she show need and nothing she had would change their minds. Ultimately, she was unable to purchase a handgun.

from wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Jersey "A lifetime purchaser identification card is required for purchase of rifles and shotguns, as well as for purchases of handgun ammunition. A permit to purchase a handgun, valid for 90 days is required for each handgun purchase. Only one handgun can be purchased within a 30-day period. According to state law, purchase permits/identification cards are supposed to be granted on a Shall-Issue basis, but in practice many issuing authorities require the applicant to justify the need for a firearm before granting approval for the permit/ID card. Some issuing authorities have been known to arbitrarily deny purchase permits and ID cards. "

Fortunately, nothing happened to her, and she is doing well in another state after family court judges finally allowed her to move a couple of years ago. But in reality, every time you place more laws down, it just makes it harder for the law abiding to get firearms. It also gives people with an agenda the opportunity to impose their agenda instead of following state law. In the case of my friend, she was an administrative assistant. She did not have the resources to go to court against the issuing authority to force them to follow the law.
 
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