3:10 is live!

Michael

Grand Admiral
Sep 27, 2016
983
3,531
1,150
RSI Handle
Pewbaca
I see both sides to this, one side it can make combat feel terribly cumbersome, slow and micromanaged and I totally get it from a dogfight or single player point of view. But I also see the immersion side to this, this gives ships like the Tracker, Terrapin, Carrack, virtually any ship with robust scanning systems another job, these ships that were labeled C&C now have an actual job, players on board these larger ships like Polaris, Hammerhead and capital ships now have a huge role play in my opinion, your radar guy is now possibly just as important as your pilot or gunners. Stealth or Recon ships can now sort of label targets for a fleet or group to line up and put an order on things, from a tactical and group/fleet aspect this is a huge improvement.
Not yet but hopefully very soon
Again, I see both sides to, I also believe by the time this game is done, another 2-3 years from now it wouldn't surprise me if CIG implements its own voice command system, after seeing so many people use it and the fact that it works pretty damn well in an alpha I think it would stupid for CIG not to just put this in the game. Imagine these systems 2-3 years from now, you won't even be pushing keyboard binds lol we will all have VR and voice commands.
they already talked about it

PSA: You can click on rader to select targets.

View: https://youtu.be/-BHDKLzGb5s
 
Last edited:

Bambooza

Grand Admiral
Sep 25, 2017
3,975
12,609
950
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
New Babbage needs high wind advisories, trying to take off in the Carrack from the hanger I hardly crest the doors when the wind flipped the Carrack on her back and there I was stuck not enough top thrusters to push off the ground or even roll.
 

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
3,107
9,569
1,850
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
I can see the benefit of this style of targeting for group where one ship higjhlights a target and feeds it to the rest or multi-crew play where one player is sat at the Targeting Station, but for a single player this kind of micromanagement is not conductive to fun play.
Agreed, but it does seem to say that we now have the real benefits of a REO, like on the F-14 Tomcat. This is more realistic if it gives a clear advantage to two seaters.
But I also see the immersion side to this, this gives ships like the Tracker, Terrapin, Carrack, virtually any ship with robust scanning systems another job, these ships that were labeled C&C now have an actual job, players on board these larger ships like Polaris, Hammerhead and capital ships now have a huge role play in my opinion, your radar guy is now possibly just as important as your pilot or gunners.
Exactly. Who has been up with a Cutty, Vanguard, etc. with someone in the turret to see if the turret gunner can pin targets for the pilot? What do we know about how pinning is shared in ship and between friendlies?

This is going to make an incredible difference with ships like the Polaris, with the huge holodisplay, and the ability to give eyes on the entire battlefield. They needed to do this to do that. This is huge. Of course soloists won't like it, but serious team combat pilots who actually take commands from a C&C are gonna love it. It should not only make it possible for a C&C to direct combat pilots to specific targets in an instant, it is even possible the C&C can lock targets in individual friendly fighters. That would be amazingly effective.

So for instance, if you're flying screen on an Idris in Vanduul space and you get into a hairy furball, your squadron commander can see if someone gets on your six and respond by reassigning your target. You'll know the C&C knows things you do not, and expect there was someone on your six, and immediately respond to the new target.

This is EXTREMELY powerful for cooperative players. Those that don't use the system can't much expect to compete with disciplined pilots who have the benefit of complete awareness.

One can imagine a seperate controler standing around a holodisplay for each fighter in combat, with individual comms, all the controlers confiring and a commander deciding, while the fighters fly their best on the directions they get.
 
Last edited:

CosmicTrader

Space Marshal
Officer
Donor
Oct 30, 2015
5,346
20,533
1,975
RSI Handle
CosmicTrader
I just tried Pirate Swarm in AC 3.10 with the new targetting system - pinning/locking targets and the new pips with improved missiles....
I love this new combat system..... Yes, it needs some minor tweaks...but a much improved combat......
(btw - I used an Avenger Titan and it was a lot of fun... just like the 'old days. hehehe) No more arcadey feel to combat.
 

Tei

Commander
Dec 8, 2019
173
430
100
RSI Handle
TeiwazWolf
I 100% disagree.

When flying in groups or fleets, this is essential to me.
I never saw you at any combat focused events with Test, and I don't know how much and how often you did singleseater space combat.

What matters to me is that 95% of people who do live for pvp in SC and do it almost daily, who I know (multiple pvp focused Orgs and Discord groups), dislike new target acquisition minigame and loss of situational awareness coming as a result of changes.

It feels like they did change that is good for turrets and forced it to every other scenario.
It will work ok for big ship with dedicated radar guy who selects target, but it is a terrible design for single seater small/medium ship doing pvp or pve.
It's even bad fror people who are traders and miners, because now it is much harder for them to scan all ships in radar range to see if there are any hostiles.

What's new with the missiles?
Missiles seem to be more consistent, harder to evade. At the same time countermeasures seems to work better than in recent patches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deroth

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
3,107
9,569
1,850
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
What matters to me is that 95% of people who do live for pvp in SC and do it almost daily, who I know (multiple pvp focused Orgs and Discord groups), dislike new target acquisition minigame and loss of situational awareness coming as a result of changes.
Keep in mind that after years of tweeks, pvp solo pilots are still jousting, still point and shoot, still nothing like real fighter combat. Because you don't really die when you die, people do not fly like in real combat. It is still after all the changes we've seen, extremely rare for pilots to deliberately maneuver to get behind an opponent to take them out while not being shot at themselves. This is a FAILURE of the current system, no matter how much you might like it. It is not emmersive, not challenging, and does not press pilots to excel at what they do. Anyone can see this simply by watching live video streaming or vids on youtube.

What we're seeing is supposed to change this, and if it does it will be the first time SC approximates real combat. If you like the way is was, you can find that in several other games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scape

Heartwood

Vice Admiral
Oct 30, 2017
169
562
400
RSI Handle
Heartwood
It's even bad fror people who are traders and miners, because now it is much harder for them to scan all ships in radar range to see if there are any hostiles.
How come? When both scan for ships, they find each other based on components quality and size. So this is already a dynamic process due to different loadouts and ship roles.

If the attacker has superior systems, he will find the trader and likely pin it first to not provoke a reactional scan.
If the trader has "", he will find neutral ships approaching, flying by or away and will keep an eye on distance and flight behavior of those getting closer. Doesn't matter if hostile yet or not, flight course and distance can tell the motive.

Given that pinning is a way to keep the target highlighted but not alerted, both are free to pin each other and observe. This seems to be the way forward for more game play choices. Would it not also allow stealth to be much more important? Would it not also allow scanning components to become much more useful in the future?

It may have something to do with the amount of actions you as a player are used to do. It has become more now.

If you are still reading: i had a couple of flight lessons last year during which i had to constantly check at least 4 indicators every other second while listening to the instructor, keeping the plane on course during strong winds and having to look out for potential other planes while preparing the next maneuvers for landing approach and on top of that the radio call to the tower which i'd never done before.

It worked. It was mandatory, it got easier the next couple of lessons. Scan, pin, look out, adjust.

If i missed your point with this, please correct me again.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Scape

NaffNaffBobFace

Space Marshal
Donor
Jan 5, 2016
7,483
29,278
2,025
RSI Handle
NaffNaffBobFace
It is still after all the changes we've seen, extremely rare for pilots to deliberately maneuver to get behind an opponent to take them out while not being shot at themselves.
From my expiriance given that most ship to ship combat is in space, you can't get behind someone and stay there without them uncoupling and shooting back at you. If you' or them are not closing distance you are both at risk.

The dual stick setup pilots are extremely good at this - their ships basically become floating turrets in space and they can really mop up. Much more effecting than getting on a tail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scape and Deroth

Shadow Reaper

Space Marshal
Jun 3, 2016
3,107
9,569
1,850
RSI Handle
Shadow Reaper
If you're behind someone in a dogfight, and they don't have the situational awareness to know this, then what you end up with is much more like dogfighting than flying turrets. I think this is what CIG is after, and what some of the pvp soloists are complaining about. Now they're vulnerable in ways they were not before.
 

BuzZz_Killer

Commander
Jun 9, 2020
18
89
100
RSI Handle
BuzZz_Killer
The biggest problem I see with the new targeting system is in situational awareness. Especially when trying to coordinate a fleet. You can't see where your friends are. You can't see where your enemies are. So you just blindly flail the nose of your ship around until you find an enemy and engage. If the radar was easier to read, this might be more feasible, but as it is, I'm not a fan. I was hoping they'd improve targeting by giving us an MFD page that lists all the radar contacts. (Separated from your friends list)
 

Bambooza

Grand Admiral
Sep 25, 2017
3,975
12,609
950
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
The biggest problem I see with the new targeting system is in situational awareness. Especially when trying to coordinate a fleet. You can't see where your friends are. You can't see where your enemies are. So you just blindly flail the nose of your ship around until you find an enemy and engage. If the radar was easier to read, this might be more feasible, but as it is, I'm not a fan. I was hoping they'd improve targeting by giving us an MFD page that lists all the radar contacts. (Separated from your friends list)
They still show up clearly on the radar. I am not sure I understand this loss of situational awareness
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scape

Phil

Space Marshal
Donor
Nov 22, 2015
1,070
2,868
1,650
RSI Handle
Bacraut
Again, this is all about immersion and I think the people who dislike this are the hardcore dogfighting players, most of the complaints I have seen so far not just on here have been from this aspect. But lets remember this game is all about immersion and I for one was not supportive of a survival eating/drinking mechanic or the prison system as I feel it takes crucial time away from gamers, this game is already a time sink just from a travel perspective, if they continue to make the game so immersive people could literally spend 90% of their time in game doing non essential things.

That being said, I think they have to continue down this path, they have made this game so detailed that there are things they cannot not do and to me this targeting system is a part of that. You can't say here is a radar station but the guy working its job is so simple you don't need a radar guy, medical, repair etc... these jobs to be crucial in the game must be detail oriented or no one will ever play these positions and you would have to implement AI for everything but the pilot.

I really think CIG stuck their foot in it when they went down this immersion path, yes I love the idea of it, yes we all want it, but can they pull it off and how long is going to take?
 

Bambooza

Grand Admiral
Sep 25, 2017
3,975
12,609
950
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
So the Snowboarding Penguin was still there when I logged back in. It seems objects in a ship persists only if you do not store the ship away in a hanger. Also, it seems if you go to the ship hanger screen storing a ship destroys it, best to just let it auto store.
 

BUTUZ

Space Marshal
Donor
Apr 8, 2016
2,376
7,631
1,850
RSI Handle
BUTUZ
FYI: if your having fun throwing a carrack around in the wind and you stall it, it's nonrecoverable. The manoeuvring thrusters are not enough to get it off the ground if you are upside down!

ScreenShot0213.jpg
ScreenShot0221.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Phil and Deroth

Deroth

Admiral
Donor
Sep 28, 2017
1,377
4,598
800
RSI Handle
Deroth1
Keep in mind that after years of tweeks, pvp solo pilots are still jousting, still point and shoot, still nothing like real fighter combat. Because you don't really die when you die, people do not fly like in real combat. It is still after all the changes we've seen, extremely rare for pilots to deliberately maneuver to get behind an opponent to take them out while not being shot at themselves. This is a FAILURE of the current system, no matter how much you might like it. It is not emmersive, not challenging, and does not press pilots to excel at what they do. Anyone can see this simply by watching live video streaming or vids on youtube.

What we're seeing is supposed to change this, and if it does it will be the first time SC approximates real combat. If you like the way is was, you can find that in several other games.
If you want to play a WW2 simulator, there is an abundance of those.

The whole getting behind the other airplane tactic is due to the physics of planes having to fly forward. If you watch videos of helicopter vs helicopter or helicopter vs airplane, the tactics are drastically different as helicopters have drastically different physics constraints.

So holding space ships in space to the physics constraints of an airplane in atmosphere is unrealistic and unimmersive as it is different physics constraints they're dealing with.
It is natural and expected for the two dominant space combat approaches to being either jousting or death spiral stafing.
 

Bambooza

Grand Admiral
Sep 25, 2017
3,975
12,609
950
RSI Handle
MrBambooza
If you want to play a WW2 simulator, there is an abundance of those.

The whole getting behind the other airplane tactic is due to the physics of planes having to fly forward. If you watch videos of helicopter vs helicopter or helicopter vs airplane, the tactics are drastically different as helicopters have drastically different physics constraints.

So holding space ships in space to the physics constraints of an airplane in atmosphere is unrealistic and unimmersive as it is different physics constraints they're dealing with.
It is natural and expected for the two dominant space combat approaches to being either jousting or death spiral stafing.

Unrealistic yes, but Chris has always been very clear he wants space battles to be like Starwars which is like WWII fighter planes in space. Realistic would be more like combat seen in the Expanse where you shoot things with rail guns you cannot see out the window.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lorddarthvik

Lorddarthvik

Space Marshal
Donor
Feb 22, 2016
1,182
4,057
1,610
RSI Handle
Lorddarthvik
If you want to play a WW2 simulator, there is an abundance of those.

The whole getting behind the other airplane tactic is due to the physics of planes having to fly forward. If you watch videos of helicopter vs helicopter or helicopter vs airplane, the tactics are drastically different as helicopters have drastically different physics constraints.

So holding space ships in space to the physics constraints of an airplane in atmosphere is unrealistic and unimmersive as it is different physics constraints they're dealing with.
It is natural and expected for the two dominant space combat approaches to being either jousting or death spiral stafing.
It has been very clearly stated from the very first trailer that CR wants this game to have classic ww2 style dogfights, and repeated year over year that they are trying to get away from what you call realistic space combat, as in the idiotic jousting and death spiral strafe. It might be closer to realistic, but it sure aint thrilling fun, especially for many many people who joined on the premise of finally having a "proper old-school spacesim" like wing commander or tie fighter.

Btw, with all this bullshit about what's realistic and not:
You know what was the very best way to fight any AI ship, and most humans also? Just stop. Period.
Throttle to zero, shields forward, and shoot up the morons trying to strafe, dodge, and aim at the same time. Act like a stationary turret, aim and fire. If you have big enough guns, you win easily. I could easily kill a pirate Connie with a stock aurora mr after figuring this out instead of trying to "fly" around and act all cool. Some patience was needed cos the guns were weak but still...
Realistic? Maybe. But It was fucking stupid! Not skillful, the opposite of anything immersive, just blatantly idiotic! Where's the point in having a space ship if you're just better off not moving at all!?!

Tbh I'm not sure they can get to the "WW2 dogfights" unless they drastically alter the flight mechanics to be even less physically correct. But they now came up with this idea for targeting and adjusted the ships to move people away from just jousting. They are doing what they said for ever and ever they would try to achieve. Classic WW airplane style dogfights.
If you want the sensless jousting and death spiral of who has better ping, you might be looking at the wrong game. It's probably never coming back once they can truly get rid of it.




Tldr.: some might want "realistic" combat. I want fun combat even if "unrealistic", where actual flying skills come into play instead of just who has bigger guns and better ping.
That's what I signed up for, not what we had since launch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bambooza
Forgot your password?