[Discussion] Divisions of TEST - Brainstorm

[Shar Treuse]

Kurtis has a point. Most people I know who are interested in Business and industrial will also be interested in logistics. I know I am. Maybe we should just roll logistics into Econ.

That's not always the case though. When I ran the R&D/Industrial division of one of my EVE corps, there was a separate group handling logistics, with some members flying the huge mega freighters (the ones bigger than the Iteron-5) and others running fast, small cargo blockade runners across the zero-sec boundary. All of my people handled BPO/BPC management and producing consumables/modules/ships but distribution was "come get it or have someone else do it for you, we don't handle that."

 

[Derkerter]

just spitballing some ideas here

LAGER: Lawful Alliance of Generalist Escort Referrals (combat)
IPA: Independent Privateer Association (pirates/smugglers/other "black market" jobs)
ALE: Alliance of Local Economists (Economy)
PILSNER: Professional Infrastructure, Space Navigation, Exploration, and Resupply. (Logstics

This is brilliant.

 

[KegMeister]

Are we waiting to see how the game will operate in the PU before we start determining who wants to do what? I think we might want to have some idea of who wants to start where, and then people can move around to what they want to do after they start figuring it out? I would hate to be behind other orgs and have to spend the first month or two playing catch up.

 

[NKato]

Are we waiting to see how the game will operate in the PU before we start determining who wants to do what? I think we might want to have some idea of who wants to start where, and then people can move around to what they want to do after they start figuring it out? I would hate to be behind other orgs and have to spend the first month or two playing catch up.

Anybody can do whatever they want in TEST, the point of divisions is to provide a structure that will facilitate any of these activities.

 

[KegMeister]

Anybody can do whatever they want in TEST, the point of divisions is to provide a structure that will facilitate any of these activities.

I get that - but would it not help to have an idea of what people want to do and have them organized so when the PU opens, we hit the ground running and not have to spend a month or two figuring it all out? Or at least have some structure ready to coordinate our early efforts? I myself would like to switch between manufacturing/space trucking/combat - but how will I know where to go or what to make without a roadmap for TEST?

 

[honcho12]

I get that - but would it not help to have an idea of what people want to do and have them organized so when the PU opens, we hit the ground running and not have to spend a month or two figuring it all out? Or at least have some structure ready to coordinate our early efforts? I myself would like to switch between manufacturing/space trucking/combat - but how will I know where to go or what to make without a roadmap for TEST?

Check out the Professions forum, there are already groups for space trucking/combat. Feel free to make your own unofficial manufacturing group.

And NKato is balls deep in getting stuff organized, there isn't really much more that can be done until we have more details about mechanics/org tools.

 

[Black Sunder]

I get that - but would it not help to have an idea of what people want to do and have them organized so when the PU opens, we hit the ground running and not have to spend a month or two figuring it all out? Or at least have some structure ready to coordinate our early efforts? I myself would like to switch between manufacturing/space trucking/combat - but how will I know where to go or what to make without a roadmap for TEST?

To address this, the plan is to create these groups when Org 2.0 hits so we have a better foundation to work off of.

 

[NKato]

I've been thinking a bit. Here's a further breakdown of what I have in mind for the divisions:

• Combat Division
  Primary Mission Statement: We pew pew things according to TEST Directives...and when we feel like it!
  • Space Combat (Space Combat, Security)
    
  • Marine Combat (Boarding Combat, Bounty Hunters, Security)
    
  • Field Command (Ground-Level Fleet and Squad Command)
• Logistics Division
  Primary Mission Statement: The backbone of TEST - we're made of sturdier stuff than Jell-o!
  • Cargo & Passenger Transport (Import/Export for TEST needs, Passenger Service, Operation of Org Hangars, etc)
    
  • Information Logistics (Data-Running, Spectrum Hacking)
    
  • Exploration (Jump Mapping, Stellar Cartography, Field Recon)
    
  • Engineering (Repair, Maintenance, R&D)
• Economics Division
  Primary Mission Statement: Makin' money, hand over fist! We're Space Jews.
  • Mining & Salvage (Resource Acquisition)
    
  • Trade (Buy High, Sell Low; production exports)
    
  • Production (Factories, Refining of Ore & Salvage)
• Stand-Alone Multi-Divisional Groups
  • Capital & Carrier Operations (Logistics & Combat)
    This group would be responsible for managing and deciding matters pertaining to persistent capital warships. This would be established as soon as TEST acquires a Persistent Warship. The point of this is to ensure coordination for rearming and defense of the ship(s). Logistics is also going to likely provide personnel for assisting with the maintenance and rearming of combat craft aboard hangar-capable ships.
  • TEST PALS
    The outlaw arm of TEST Squadron, basically. This will be either established as a squad with no formal classification within Org 2.0, or as its own stand-alone organization within an Alliance structure.
  • TEST Racing
    The speed demons of TEST Squadron, they receive funding from Economics Division, and engineering support from Logistics Division.

One of the most important things about cargo transport is that there will be two types of cargo categories under this divisional system. They are:

• TEST Cargo (Logistics)
  Cargo that TEST members require. Commodities such as ammunition and equipment. These will be procured and sold at-cost to line members, with cost-offset practices in place (similar to nullsec in EVE). Said cost-offset practices may include purchasing rare/region-specific commodities from TEST members at a reasonable price, and exporting it to a good trade hub for selling at a decent markup.
  
  
• Trade Cargo (Economics)
  Cargo that TEST members do not require as end-consumers. These are essentially commodities that can be liquidated for a profit. This falls under the Economics Division. The typical "cycle" of Trade Cargo goes something like this: Econ Guy buys a stock of foodstuffs from Bremen, exports it to Delamar, Nyx, and sells it at a nice markup. Trade Cargo is strategically worthless to TEST Squadron apart from generating an income.

And for the observant, you may have noticed that I added an "Engineering" category under the Logistics Division. This is primarily due to the fact that engineering does not necessarily fit well with either combat or economics, because engineering often involves repairing, upgrading, and maintaining equipment. In a sense, this falls under Logistics, because the job of Logistics is to maintain and support the continued functionality of TEST Squadron. If you disagree with this categorization, please don't hesitate to post and explain why.

It's also possible to break Logistics Division up into two divisions, if the need arises. Information Logistics and Exploration can be spun off into their own division if the situation requires it. However, I do not expect that Information Logistics will be very large on its own, and Engineering will also be fairly small compared to Exploration and Transport.

Any thoughts or comments?

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

Splitting up the cargo is needlessly convoluted. Just have cargo guys that take jobs from whoever needs it. Splitting them into two doubles the admin requirements and halves cargo drivers available to any other division at any one time. If you look for operational flexibility and synergy between divisions you need less divisions that do more, not more divisions that do less.

AND WHEARS MAH FUEL BOYS AT??!!

 

[NKato]

Splitting up the cargo is needlessly convoluted. Just have cargo guys that take jobs from whoever needs it. Splitting them into two doubles the admin requirements and halves cargo drivers available to any other division at any one time. If you look for operational flexibility and synergy between divisions you need less divisions that do more, not more divisions that do less.

AND WHEARS MAH FUEL BOYS AT??!!

Fuel acquisition and distribution is Logistics as well.

And the point of splitting up cargo is mainly categorical, it doesn't mean that Logistics won't move Trade Cargo. It's really simple:

Logistics will have more regular haul runs on determined routes. If Trade Goods need to move along those routes, Logistics and/or Econ can move 'em. But outside that, it'll be at the individual discretion of the members to move any cargo outside the scope of Logistics.

Again, because of the non-exclusive nature of squads under each division, there is really no problem here. You can have someone be part of ECON and LOGI, and still manage to haul shit for any fucking reason.

One of the reasons why I wanted to categorize the cargo types is to make it easier to prioritize those types according to the needs of TEST.

For example, let's say we have a hauler doing a run from Sol to Elysium (Elysium being where one of our hubs is, according to this scenario), and the demand for ammo outstrips cargo capacity. That means there would be no room for Trade Cargo on most scheduled Logistics haulers.

That's not to say that Logistics can't handle on-demand runs, but doing things on-demand can create stress and problems. For example, in EVE, it's impossible to have a shipment happen on demand within the hour, because all the haulers are doing their rounds according to their own plans. It is foolish to think that any one single hauler can quickly make time to move a trader's cargo with immediate priority.

That's why I think Trade Cargo belongs firmly in the hands of the actual traders doing the trading. That way, they don't have to sit around whistlin' the Dixie with their fucking buttholes waiting for a Logistics Hull-E, when they could just as easily contract a Banu Merchantman that's available in-system.

You can contract a Logistics guy, but don't expect him to jump at a trader's beck and call every single time.

 

[RipVanDan]

Here is what I propose
ops group
support group
Ops takes part in active operations. Suppport keeps ops active.
Immortal emperor Montoya points we follow.

 

[NKato]

Here is what I propose
ops group
support group
Ops takes part in active operations. Suppport keeps ops active.
Immortal emperor Montoya points we follow.

Not enough structure, doesn't really help with delegating roles, tasks, and assets. (And it certainly doesn't help with compartmentalizing to insulate TEST against disasters)

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

> scheduled logistics haulers

top kek. We have no idea if there will even be a purpose to a regular schedule for any trade route or if we will even have enough people willing to devote time to wearing a grove in space going A->B->A->B to even have them if there was a requirement. It really is wasting your time at this point to go deeper than your original concept before we have even an inkling of how gameplay is actually going to be. I know you enjoy it but honestly man its a dead horse until we know more.

 

[NKato]

> scheduled logistics haulers

top kek. We have no idea if there will even be a purpose to a regular schedule for any trade route or if we will even have enough people willing to devote time to wearing a grove in space going A->B->A->B to even have them if there was a requirement. It really is wasting your time at this point to go deeper than your original concept before we have even an inkling of how gameplay is actually going to be. I know you enjoy it but honestly man its a dead horse until we know more.

By schedule, I'm talking about routine haulers. Even in EVE, we have freighter pilots who regularly make their rounds along their usual routes. Those are the haulers you'd end up contracting with if you wanted to get cargo from one place to another that's part of his route.

A lot of my experience comes from EVE Online's open-world approach, and it's extremely unlikely for logistics in Star Citizen to be much different from EVE's.

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

It's extremely likely that it will be different enough that it won't carry over. We don't know if you will be able to just take stuff to a planet and expect to sell it, or if we will have to take specific orders or jobs from NPC companies for each run. We don't know how reactive the markets are going to be or how much of an effect the players are even going to be able to have on them. We don't know if one full Starfarer will be able to supply a Javelin and 20 Hornets or if it will take 10. We don't even know what short and long range mean yet.

 

[NKato]

It's just as likely that it will be different enough that it won't carry over.

FTFY. Never discount anything at this stage.

 

[EpilepticCricket]

We have no idea if there will even be a purpose to a regular schedule for any trade route or if we will even have enough people willing to devote time to wearing a grove in space going A->B->A->B to even have them if there was a requirement. It really is wasting your time at this point to go deeper than your original concept before we have even an inkling of how gameplay is actually going to be. I know you enjoy it but honestly man its a dead horse until we know more.

A lot of my experience comes from EVE Online's open-world approach, and it's extremely unlikely for logistics in Star Citizen to be much different from EVE's.

This is very accurate. How many corps and alliances were broken into pieces by having their logistic lines interfered with? I personally went on numerous hit and run raids just to cripple a corps ice mining ops and mining was the tip of the economic iceberg in EVE. Interrupting logistics, even short term could be devastating. Obviously we're not talking about defending anything here, but the point of the matter is that there will be trade lines. There will be resources that we need to buy and those that we're selling.

It's important to understand that these systems will be in place and required for any large corp to maintain any sense of self-sufficiency. Regardless of how the system is implemented in SC, there will be supply runs. There will be players that when they get to log in on Thursday, they "make a Jita run" or what have you.

Yes, we don't know the specifics of "how" these things will get done, but it's sensible fleshing out ideas and brain storming now instead of waiting and scrambling. It's important to let people know we've got a plan. And besides, we've got fuck-all else to do lol.

 

[that_frog_kurtis]

Mark my words, for all your theory crafting, this is how TEST will pan out.

 

[NKato]

Yes, we don't know the specifics of "how" these things will get done, but it's sensible fleshing out ideas and brain storming now instead of waiting and scrambling. It's important to let people know we've got a plan. And besides, we've got fuck-all else to do lol.

This should totally be a signature quote.

 

[AntiSqueaker]

I feel like raiding enemy fuel lines and mining points sounds like a job for PALS!

All aboard! Choo chooooooo